Addition of Crossbows to the FCA Rule book

[jhooey]

I have read the comments on the other thread. The debate is a lengthy one and your comments will be considered carefully.


This is what the OAA is proposing that the FCA add to the list of categories in the 3D rules:

Crossbow – CB (m), CB (f), CB (m/f)
· Any crossbow legal in Canada

· Maximum speed of 300 feet per second (+3%)

· Bolts must be no less that 20/64ths in diameter and no shorter than 14 inches

· All bolts must be identical in type, size, fletch, point weight and overall weight

· Bolts must use at least three vanes or feathers and screw in field points

· Any type of sight may be used however, sights with magnification are limited to no more then 8x magnification.

· Crossbow must be in sound condition with a working safety

· Crossbow shall not be cocked until the archer is at the stake and preparing to shoot.

· Crossbow must be loaded while in a downward position and pointed toward the target. No crossbow may be loaded while pointed up.

· All shooters shall shoot free-standing

· The use of a standard 2 point sling to be used for carry/support is permitted.

I sense that some of you are very opposed, some are slightly opposed, and some are for the inclusion of crossbows. For the purposes of this thread, please indicate whether you are:
1) very opposed
2) slightly opposed
3) not opposed

AND

Suggestions relating to the rules stated above if you feel that they should be included.

Thank you.

Jude Hooey
FCA 3D VP

[acearchery]

Jude... neither for or against the idea...

The only suggestion i have is for safety perhaps limits regarding trigger pulls and activations need to be included.....

i.e. trigger mst be manually activated with pressure applied by the operator's finger onto a trigger mechanism requiring at least 2 pounds of pressure....

just to minimise danger of "hair triggers"....

The difference here is that with the draw lock device... there is a risk of accidental activation in a direction uncontrolled by the archer.....

[cdhunter]

just slightly opposed. first reason being the speed limits @300fps. just about every compound manufacture is producing a regular compound bow capable of exceeding these speeds, and they're totally ibo legal. When ever a machine is built to do a particular job ie high speed then is asked to do something it was never intended to do ie slow speed, then the design is compromised creating a safety issue and the laws of physics says you cannot destroy energy just convert it. that being said the crossbow bolt may travel slower but is carrying more energy to the target, doing more damage to the target. In the early rounds the damage may not be visible but as the competition continues the possibility for a pass through increases. I'd rather have cross bows doing insane speeds with a light bolt than a heavy bolt traveling with a lot more energy down range softening up the targets. the same goes for regular compounds.


2. the only vocal supporter of this proposal is Ontario and the only true vocal resistance is Alberta. Until more provinces add their support to either camp their is no clear majority to support this change. I feel it is up to Ontario and or Alberta to find the backing from the other provinces to provide a clear majority in support or defeat of this proposal.




One final thought if adopted would cross bows be included in the indoor seasons and is anyone really comfortable being on course Knowing that they are sharing the same targets as a cross bow, ssome ranges can only accommodate up to the 18m mark.

[Duggernaut]

What about a maximum draw weight and minimum bolt weight? Should 5 grs. per pound be in use here as well? That should keep things fairly even concerning target damage.
Good point AC.
I have no problem shooting with them in a tournament, but hunting???????? Hmmm.

[Duggernaut]

Failure to comply with these rules will result in immediate disqualification and a personal escort off the course into the back seat of a police cruiser....... :)

[Mikey]

I for one am very opposed ... a Crossbow has absolutly zero to do with archery. and in my opinion Zero to do with the Federation of Canadian Archers
If you wanna use one for hunting ... Fine advocates can lobby for their own seasons just like what the archers did
If Cross Bow advocates want to have tournaments fine with me ... let them start their own organization .... from what I see ... Cross Bow advocates are jumping onto the Shirt tails of Archery Advocates and reaping the rewards of many many years of hard work that archers (especailly of Alberta) have put in to get the privilages they get now, because they are lazy ... Just like Crossbowers ...want the liberal seasons ... dont want to put in the time to learn to use a bow

If you can prove to me similarities between a Crossbow and a (what the H*ll...) compound bow other than they are missile shaped projectiles that are propelled by mechanical means I might re-think my stance on this issue .... Untill then ... Thats where I stand


NOW!!!!!!! That all said ...... when it comes to Disabled persons where a compound is not feasible due to whatever .... Crossbows are a viable option in my eyes.

[Sean]

Are you sure that this is an OAA proposal to the FCA directly?? you see that is the same proposal that was put in when the OAA moved to adopt the FCA rules for target/field/3D since the FCA doesn't follow IBO rules the OAA had to put an adendum to include the x-bow division that was already inuse.

I think that this is just an OAA proposal to the comitee since the last 2 items I had put inplace only a couple weeks ago

[Sean]

I for one am very opposed ... a Crossbow has absolutly zero to do with archery. and in my opinion Zero to do with the Federation of Canadian Archers
If you wanna use one for hunting ... Fine advocates can lobby for their own seasons just like what the archers did
If Cross Bow advocates want to have tournaments fine with me ... let them start their own organization .... from what I see ... Cross Bow advocates are jumping onto the Shirt tails of Archery Advocates and reaping the rewards of many many years of hard work that archers (especailly of Alberta) have put in to get the privilages they get now, because they are lazy ... Just like Crossbowers ...want the liberal seasons ... dont want to put in the time to learn to use a bow

If you can prove to me similarities between a Crossbow and a (what the H*ll...) compound bow other than they are missile shaped projectiles that are propelled by mechanical means I might re-think my stance on this issue .... Untill then ... Thats where I stand


NOW!!!!!!! That all said ...... when it comes to Disabled persons where a compound is not feasible due to whatever .... Crossbows are a viable option in my eyes.


this is the same arguments of 30 years ago false then false now and 30 years of stats to prove it. Alberta is an a holding pattern and decreased season aren't far in the offing(grizzly bear) and crossbows had nothing to do with it. In Ontario we have a vast and expanding season for deer/moose/bear and crossbow archers played a large role in it. The main problem here is that nobody really cares what you shoot what matters is does the equipment warrent a place in an archery season, basic math shows that crosbows have no more or less power than other bows and also requier the same level of bowhunting skill. Niether is gas powered and both have the same effective range so it makes sence to place them in a common season and expand it.

When I brought them into the OAA I became the devil for a while to some but when it came down to vote there was not a single vote against it (must be those lazy compounders). After 1 year the division had over 35 entants and some in the Open class, the sky didn't fall nobody got hurt and the club made some extra cash, you see Hollywood is't right all the time.

Heck we even let them shoot indoor for both our Provincial IFAA and Fita Champs

[Mikey]

this is the same arguments of 30 years ago false then false now and 30 years of stats to prove it. Alberta is an a holding pattern and decreased season aren't far in the offing(grizzly bear) and crossbows had nothing to do with it. In Ontario we have a vast and expanding season for deer/moose/bear and crossbow archers played a large role in it. The main problem here is that nobody really cares what you shoot what matters is does the equipment warrent a place in an archery season, basic math shows that crosbows have no more or less power than other bows and also requier the same level of bowhunting skill. Niether is gas powered and both have the same effective range so it makes sence to place them in a common season and expand it.

When I brought them into the OAA I became the devil for a while to some but when it came down to vote there was not a single vote against it (must be those lazy compounders). After 1 year the division had over 35 entants and some in the Open class, the sky didn't fall nobody got hurt and the club made some extra cash, you see Hollywood is't right all the time.

Heck we even let them shoot indoor for both our Provincial IFAA and Fita Champs

Sean ... do me a favour ... shrug yer shoulders and exhale .... You are talking hunting ... I am talking archery ... totally differant.

Cross bows and compound bows require totally differant skills to operate effectivly ... right??? Shooting a crossbow has absolutly zero in common with the skills required to shooting a bow ...can you agree with me on that? ..do you actually see what I am saying .... or are you totally blind to others viewpoints .. as far as this disscustion goes I could give a crap about whats allowed to hunt with when.....

Shooting a crossbow is not archery ... you can keep going by spewing stats that cant be proven (when ya cant dazzle em with brilliance ...baffle em with bullS#!t ) but you havent ansered my question that I posed ...
If you can prove to me similarities between a Crossbow and a (what the H*ll...) compound bow other than they are missile shaped projectiles that are propelled by mechanical means I might re-think my stance on this issue ....


WHY should the FCA create a cross bow division????

[Sean]

Sean ... do me a favour ... shrug yer shoulders and exhale .... You are talking hunting ... I am talking archery ... totally differant.

WOW didn't know hunting in the archery season wasn't archery glad you cleared that up

Cross bows and compound bows require totally differant skills to operate effectivly ... right??? Shooting a crossbow has absolutly zero in common with the skills required to shooting a bow ...can you agree with me on that? NO

..do you actually see what I am saying NO .... or are you totally blind to others viewpoints ..
NO but appearently you are

as far as this disscustion goes I could give a crap about whats allowed to hunt with when.....

Shooting a crossbow is not archery ... you can keep going by spewing stats that cant be proven, If you IQ is above your shoe size you can look for your self


(when ya cant dazzle em with brilliance ...baffle em with bullS#!t ) but you havent ansered my question that I posed ...



WHY should the FCA create a cross bow division????

Who's proposing one???

[cdhunter]

I have read the comments on the other thread. The debate is a lengthy one and your comments will be considered carefully.


This is what the OAA is proposing that the FCA add to the list of categories in the 3D rules:

Crossbow – CB (m), CB (f), CB (m/f)
· Any crossbow legal in Canada

· Maximum speed of 300 feet per second (+3%)

· Bolts must be no less that 20/64ths in diameter and no shorter than 14 inches

· All bolts must be identical in type, size, fletch, point weight and overall weight

· Bolts must use at least three vanes or feathers and screw in field points

· Any type of sight may be used however, sights with magnification are limited to no more then 8x magnification.

· Crossbow must be in sound condition with a working safety

· Crossbow shall not be cocked until the archer is at the stake and preparing to shoot.

· Crossbow must be loaded while in a downward position and pointed toward the target. No crossbow may be loaded while pointed up.

· All shooters shall shoot free-standing

· The use of a standard 2 point sling to be used for carry/support is permitted.

I sense that some of you are very opposed, some are slightly opposed, and some are for the inclusion of crossbows. For the purposes of this thread, please indicate whether you are:
1) very opposed
2) slightly opposed
3) not opposed

AND

Suggestions relating to the rules stated above if you feel that they should be included.

Thank you.

Jude Hooey
FCA 3D VP

last I checked Sean your the president of the OAA and unless you have an alter ego your the one presenting this proposal on behalf of the OAA.

[M12]

What about Provinces where cross bows are illegal to own? Nova Scotia comes to mind.
I agree 100% with Mikey, crossbows have zero to do with archery. Hunt with them if its legal, but leave them out of competitive archery.

[Sean]

last I checked Sean your the president of the OAA and unless you have an alter ego your the one presenting this proposal on behalf of the OAA.

I haven't been OAA President since 2000 so your about 8 years off and just check with the current Pres. and he knows nothing about a proposal, he says he sent them an information e-mail on the progress of the OAA/FCA rules alignment

[CaptainT]

Sean, this is the proposal that was sent to the FCA since we last talked.

These are the rules the OAA will be moving forward with in 2008 and are posted on our website. They are very similar to the rules that the IBO has with only a few minor changes.

The argument about a crossbow not being a bow is like saying a compound isn't a bow because it has wheels. Each is just a different means of propelling an arrow like object through the air via a string. They are not a firearm as there is no burning of powder involved in shooting the projectile.

This is as in depth as my debating will get however I will be happy to answer legitemate questions.

Cheers,
Adam, Current OAA President

[Mikey]

Sean, this is the proposal that was sent to the FCA since we last talked.

These are the rules the OAA will be moving forward with in 2008 and are posted on our website. They are very similar to the rules that the IBO has with only a few minor changes.

The argument about a crossbow not being a bow is like saying a compound isn't a bow because it has wheels. Each is just a different means of propelling an arrow like object through the air via a string. They are not a firearm as there is no burning of powder involved in shooting the projectile.

This is as in depth as my debating will get however I will be happy to answer legitemate questions.

Cheers,
Adam, Current OAA President

I haven't been OAA President since 2000 so your about 8 years off and just check with the current Pres. and he knows nothing about a proposal, he says he sent them an information e-mail on the progress of the OAA/FCA rules alignment

hmmmm ok then

I think M12 has an extremly legimate ???

heres my take
how can the FCA(as a federal governing body) endorse something that is not legal to own or possess in all provinces and territories of the country it represents?

yer right captain ... cross bows are not firearms ... they are not chemically propelled nor do they exceed 500fps (airguns with a muzzle velocity over 500 fps are considered firearms)

[cdhunter]

my apology's Sean as I was of the understanding that you still were el presidente of the oaa

[Duggernaut]

I haven't been OAA President since 2000 so your about 8 years off and just check with the current Pres. and he knows nothing about a proposal, he says he sent them an information e-mail on the progress of the OAA/FCA rules alignment

Why does the FCA have to align its rules with the OAA?

[Sean]

we are not we are aligning with them, they just didn't have a x-bow division so we had to put one in, we just made it closer to the IBO rules

[despain]

Very Opposed- what will be next wrist rockets? Pellet guns?

[CaptainT]

What about Provinces where cross bows are illegal to own? Nova Scotia comes to mind.

Can someone point me to a document where this rule exists? I wouldn't mind reading it so I can better answer the question.

I would be inclined to say that the FCA should be using Canadian law to determine what rules should exist. Last I checked crossbows were legal in Canadian law.

[CaptainT]

Very Opposed- what will be next wrist rockets? Pellet guns?

I haven't seen or heard of wrist rockets or pellet guns that have string propelled projectiles. If they did exist I think it would be the FCA's job to be a leader and entertain the idea.

[dropzone]

Can someone point me to a document where this rule exists? I wouldn't mind reading it so I can better answer the question.

I would be inclined to say that the FCA should be using Canadian law to determine what rules should exist. Last I checked crossbows were legal in Canadian law.


You are correct, crossbows are legal in all Provences and Teritories. Certian Provencial laws require the crossbow be inside of the regulations.ie; size and liable manufacter.
I have three crossbow and lived in 6 provences and never had any problems with the law. In Nova Scotia it is illegal to be in an hunting habitat with a crossbow. There has been talk in implimenting a season for them but will have to see.

Here is my out look on this topic.
I dont think crossbows should be shot at the same shoots as vertical. I believe there might be a certian safety factor to consider. I'm not saying that there is problems with the people but crosbows need different handling and the possibility of a problem could arise.
I have shot my targets that were brand new with a croosbow and have found them to shoot out faster due to the consistancy of the shot and the kinectic energy below 30 yards.

To me It would be great to see competive shooting with crossbows but not beside the rest of us. at this point anyways.

There is numerous types of shooting compitions out there and having another one is not going to hurt.

long bow, compound bow, recurve bow and cross bow all have the same suffix. I wonder why......

just my thoughts..

[despain]

I haven't seen or heard of wrist rockets or pellet guns that have string propelled projectiles. If they did exist I think it would be the FCA's job to be a leader and entertain the idea.


I would say a sling shot is closer than a Cross Bow in shooting comparisons

[despain]

You are correct, crossbows are legal in all Provences and Teritories. Certian Provencial laws require the crossbow be inside of the regulations.ie; size and liable manufacter.
I have three crossbow and lived in 6 provences and never had any problems with the law. In Nova Scotia it is illegal to be in an hunting habitat with a crossbow. There has been talk in implimenting a season for them but will have to see.

Here is my out look on this topic.
I dont think crossbows should be shot at the same shoots as vertical. I believe there might be a certian safety factor to consider. I'm not saying that there is problems with the people but crosbows need different handling and the possibility of a problem could arise.
I have shot my targets that were brand new with a croosbow and have found them to shoot out faster due to the consistancy of the shot and the kinectic energy below 30 yards.

To me It would be great to see competive shooting with crossbows but not beside the rest of us. at this point anyways.

There is numerous types of shooting compitions out there and having another one is not going to hurt.

long bow, compound bow, recurve bow and cross bow all have the same suffix. I wonder why......

just my thoughts..

you forgot the fiddle bow:eek:

[acearchery]

We all need to have an open mind. When the compound first came out and the mechanical releases the same arguments were used to try and exclude because they were different.....

All the modern croosbow is a high draw weight, short drawlength bow with a drawlock device that utilises a rail deck to rest an arrow on....

archery is about the projectile... look at a libery bow.... it is still a bow!....

They are legal to use in archery seasons in Ontario and BC.

We are faced with an option.. do we bring them under the arm of the FCA and unite.... or do we allow seperatism and elitism and force crossbow users to create their own organisaton orperhaps join with an existing federation........... The canadian shhoting federation....

Hey if trap shooters and rifle shooters can be included under same umbrella why not crossbow users also known as archers with archers?....

Hunting is a seperate provincual issue... but as a target sport I see no reason not to include under FCA umbrella...... and the reason to unite and have nore members and a louder voice can't hurt....

[jhooey]

Sean was asking where this came from.

At the FCA 3D meeting in Utopia in August, 2007, the following occured:


"3.2 3D Rule Review – request by OAA to include a crossbow division

Aside from insurance issues, is the committee in favour of including them and governing them? Tom passed the Chair to Kathy Millar.



ACTION: Kathy will check with the FCA insurance underwriter regarding the inclusion of crossbows in the national championships.



Rules will be an issue. Manufacturers’ specifications look at 425 minimum grain weight right now, and this could be incorporated. The general feeling of the committee members was inclusion with safety, being able leave the bow unattended and cocked. Committee members wanted to encourage proper technique and realistic expectations of accuracy; inclusion versus exclusion allowing for more practice and training.



MOTION #3D2007-03 To accept crossbows as an FCA 3D equipment division contingent upon OAA producing a set of rules which FCA finds acceptable.

Moved by: NS Seconded by: SK Carried"
(copied from the FCA web site)

At the AGM, I was elected to the position of 3D VP. It is in my portfolio to follow up on this issue.

I was sent the submission that started this thread by Kathy Millar. Since I am not home at the present, I can't check to see who actually sent the rules to her. I will check that out when I get home.

I need to find out from all provinces whether or not they agree with the inclusion of crossbows.

Jude Hooey

[DsrtRat]

I dont think crossbows should be shot at the same shoots as vertical. I believe there might be a certian safety factor to consider.

What safety concerns? The rules for an X-bow at a shoot are simple and safe. No cocking the bow until you are at the shooting stake. Keep the bow pointed down range at all times while at the stake. There is no more threat to other archers than with a vertical bow.

Somone in an earlier post mentioned a minimum 2 lb pull on the trigger. OK, if you wanted such a rule, fine. Most X-bows (unless modified) are way over that.

Everyone is so worried about the mythical crossbow and it's numerous dangers. Get over it. I won't debate wether it is archery equipment as I have already won that argument in another thread. As for safety, you have a better chance of some sky pulling vertical shooter launching an unsafe arrow using back tension than you do of getting hurt because a crossbow shooter is on the same range. Surely, if crossbows are as dangerous as you guys think, there must be several cases of archers being injured in Ontario every year. Please, point me to the list of all the injured shooters at the ON tournaments? Have you ever heard of even one shooter at tournament (not your druken buddies back yard) ever being injured by a crossbow? I know of a few guys that have punched themselves with releases on vertical bows.

The fact is, everyone that has an mental opposition to crossbows always falls back on the safety issue with shooting them at tournaments. Yet, they have no stats or facts to back that up with. There are none. It is all made up hype by those that are opposed to them. I dare! no I DOUBLE DOG DARE any of these guys to come up with some real documented cases of archers being injured at a 3D range by a crossbow.

If we are going to debate them, then let's base it on facts and not some deep seaded emotional response that would make a good case for a shrink. Facts guys. Let's hear them. Show me facts about their safety issues. According to your logic, there must be dozens of people injured every year in ON on the 3D courses. The OAA must have at least one instance where their insurance had to cover one of the many archers wounded by crossbows here. Anyone?

The fact is, a crossbow by deintion is archery equipment. The FCA is federal, not just a western province or two. The safety concerns are more hype than reality so I don't see why they shouldn't be added to the FCA Rule book.

Vote: FOR

[russ]

Vote: Against

[HOYTarcher]

I think the other consideration the FCA has to look at is the effect of allowing crossbows. The Alberta Bowhunters Association is opposed to crossbows in the archery season for hunting. What if any action would the ABA take if crossbows were allowed? I'm not sure, but the ABA has only recently come back into the FCA, are they willing to stay?

Russ has the ABA board discussed this at all?

I recently saw Sean post some numbers showing Alberta as the largest provincial organization in the FCA. With over 1000 members in the ABA is it worth it to appease a small number of xbowers at the possibility of loosing the largest provincial organization?

[HOYTarcher]

long bow, compound bow, recurve bow and cross bow all have the same suffix. I wonder why......

just my thoughts..



Heat gun, staple gun paint gun ................. pretty sure they are not really guns:D:lol::ph34r:

[russ]

It's been discussed briefly and there has been some strong opposition being voiced to the idea of being affiliated with the FCA if crossbows are permitted. I, at least was lead to believe that this had become a non-issue as the insurance carrier wouldn't allow it (crossbows). However, it has come to light lately that this may not be the case.

I'll bring this thread to the attention of the rest of the executive.

[DsrtRat]

Are the people running the ABA not smart enough to raealise that the FCA allwoing crossbows does not mean they are allowed during hunting season? Should the FCA have to bow down to the ABA? There are some other provinces in Canada. I know that is a tough concept for westerners right now but the AB is provincial and the FCA covers the whole country (like it or not).

[HOYTarcher]

The position of the ABA (and provincial legislation/wildlife act) has been that a crossbow is not a bow as it does not have to be drawn and held at full draw by muscle power. If the ABA were to agree to allowing crossbows into FCA archery competion it would go against this concept and weaken the arguement that xbows should not be allowed in archery seasons.

There may be other provinces, but according to the 2006 annual report Alberta does account for 25% of the current FCA membership and only recently rejoined the FCA, something I was strongly in favor of when I sat on the ABA executive.

[DsrtRat]

That may be the postion of the ABA, but the rest of the country should not have to follow the ABA's interests.

I understand what you are saying though. If the X-bows are allowed, the ABA may not like it and it might chase away their support for the FCA. Again though, that is one group with it's own interests in mind. The FCA is about archery in Canada, not archery in Alberta. 25% may be a big portion but it is still 75% away from being the whole country. The FCA is also about target archery and not hunting, which the ABA has as it's main interest.

If the FCA is seriously considering their options at this point with regards to archery in Canada, it should do just that. Look at archery across the whole country not just Alberta because they happen to dislike crossbows. I they give it a serious look and nation wide the sentiment is or crossbows, the ABA will have to suck it up. I it goes the other way, then nothing will change and really, no one here will really care.

Again, I think you guys are paranoid over nothing. It's funny though. The province that hates crossbows, doesn't allow them as archery equipment and have the least amount of exposure to them is the one giving the loudest opinion about them. That is like a virgin talking about good vs bad sex!

Personally, I could care less what the FCA does, I don't shoot a crossbow at tournaments. I think it would be funny to listen to all the westerners whine in their beer if it happened though.

[Mikey]

Are the people running the ABA not smart enough to raealise that the FCA allwoing crossbows does not mean they are allowed during hunting season? Should the FCA have to bow down to the ABA? There are some other provinces in Canada. I know that is a tough concept for westerners right now but the AB is provincial and the FCA covers the whole country (like it or not).

Holy **** ...isnt that the pot calling the kettle black

Why should the FCA cave to the OAA wishes?

[DsrtRat]

Looks like Mikey is awake!

I have never said they should bow down to the OAA. Read my posts completely before you blow your underwear. No one province should be able to call the shots. Not Alberta, not Ontario. The FCA is nation wide. If the FCA is going to consider X-bows, it will have to look at the big picture and not what the ABA wants. At no point in time have I said they have to want what the OAA wants either.

They need to take a fair and realistic look at the issue from coast to coast and make a decision.

If all you want to do is p!ss back and forth Mikey, stop wasting my time. When you read all of the posts and maybe start backing up the safety concerns with facts instead of paranoid hype, maybe then we can have a conversation.

[Mikey]

Yawn ... Ya i just woke up ...what a great sleep ...

at anyrate I am seeing it from coast to coast ... the east coast like Nova scotia they are illegal to hunt with ...on the west coast in BC they are perfectly legal to hunt with ....
as far as the FCA including them under their umbrella of Target archery ...it should not happen .... why ...because despite of all your so called winning arguements witch have been pointed and counter pointed .... the fact still remains that the general consensous of FCA members do not consider crossbows as archery tackle, even tho some provincial orgs have adopted them to within their ranks.
Both you and Sean ... whom I have a great deal of respect for for your archery skills and accomplishments have been the greatest proponents to bring the FCA on par with the current OAA rules and standings as well as I beleive it was one of you two that stated "the IBO has a crossbow division so should the FCA" or to that effect.

the biggest safety concern with Crossbows in my eyes is that they can be put down while "cocked" straight from the factory with no modifications (Yes I know you can do the same with compounds but that requires a modification and aftermarket accesory)

if the crossbowers wanna join the cdn target shooters federation ... go ahead ...
personally I think the idea of crossbows in the FCA or in any archery club is nothing more than an attemp to Pad numbers and a quick cash grab

[DsrtRat]

the fact still remains that the general consensous of FCA members

I somehow doubt that the general members you are talking about exist outside your regional circle and therefore one would expect them to be anti-crossbow. When you have a survey nationwide, maybe then we could talk about numbers. If the majority of the shooters nationwide actually think that, then so be it. I suspect your view is a little biased simply by your geographical location. Talking to your local club members about how much you guys hate x-bows does not necessarilly mean that nation wide, your feelings are shared. Facts man, bring me some facts. Until the FCA really researches this and posts some numbers, your guess is as good as mine as to what the entire FCA body thinks.

I don't quite understand what you are getting at in your safety argument? What do you mean by "put down"? Set on the ground while cocked? Surely that is not the best argument you have with regards to safety. If it is, then it is time to park the safety argument and try something else. So what if it can be set down? I have never seen or heard of someone setting a loaded crossbow on the ground in competition. You guys with your sky-is-falling fear are unreal. You act like anyone holding a crossbow has no regards for rules or safety. Do you think we are shooting apples off our heads here in Ontario? The rules are simple, freestanding, cocked at the stake, always aimed down range etc..... Just like anything, including your vertical bow, there are safety concerns and if the rules are not followed, people can get hurt. The blender on my counter can hurt someone if I don't use it properly. But, just like most vertical shooters, crossbow shooters are rule abiding, very safety minded and the last thing anyone would want is for someone to hurt. Get a grip out there guys! FFS!!! Unless you have some facts to back up your danger argument, please forget it.

The safety campaign you guys are running against crossbows is as ridiculous and unfounded as the Liberal gun registry campaign. Just like the Liberals, your arguments are not based on facts, they are based on a made-up, hazzard to public safety, fear mongering pile of lies with the sole intent to sway public opinion in your favour. We all know how well the registry has worked out based on the "safety" issue.:wink: I am going to reer to you as Mr. Chretien if you keep spewing this safety crap without backing it up. Where are the facts? Surely something as dangerous as crossbow has documented incidents of personal injury? Do you really think the OAA would sit back and do nothing if people were being injured by crossbows at shoots? You guys must have a hard time closing the refrigirator door in fear of the light not going out!

You mentioned them being illegal for hunting in NS. So what? You guys have been very clear that we are not talking about hunting in regards to this issue. Now it seems that Mathewshooter is worried about the hunting implications it could bring. Again, not my problem. That is a personal desire to keep crossbows out of the archery season in his province and the FCA should not be making it's decisions based on one province's shooters wanting to keep certain equipment out of the hunting season. That is a Provincial govt's job to decide. We are talking about target archery across this country and not the ABA's hunting concerns.

[HOYTarcher]

Actually I am worried that the ABA will once again pull out of the FCA. I spent a long time selling the FCA to previous ABA executive members and would like to see the ABA remain as part of the FCA.

The FCA membership has taken a beating recently, loosing most of its membership in Quebec which used to be the strongest affiliation.

I know many on the ABA executive and believe it wouldn't take much to see them pull out again. If it wasn't for the insurance I don't think we would have ever seen the ABA reaffliate.


Not sure on the safety aspect but I know one proshop in Calgary sells xbows but doesn't allow them to be shot as his private insurance carry would classify him in a similar manner as a gun ranged due to the ability of it to be left loaded. The second proshop also doesn't allow xbows but I am unaware as to why. Neither outdoor range in this area allows xbow use either, again I am unaware as to why.

[Mikey]

actually ...if you were to look on a map where Prince George BC (you know ....where it says where i am from in the upper right hand corner of my post) you see that it is in fact in British columbia ... a province that supports the use of Crossbows in archery only hunting seasons.... but the majority will not support a FCA Crossbow division for FITA type shoots ... a few 3D clubs would let em in to get the extra cash ...but thats about it
at anyrate ... Rat ... there is obviosly no getting through to you to see others point of veiw and you keep spewing mindless dribble ....
Its no wonder people outside of Ontario dont realize where the real world is if they all have your mind set ....


Also the ABA is part of the FCA mambership ...making up 25% of its memebership ... Alberta also has the ATAA making up a little less than that ..... pretty certain the Alberta Target association (yes thats right ... Alberta has 2 distinct organisations that fall under the FCA ...pretty cool huh?) dont want Crossbows in the FCA either ... so now pushing close to 40% Thats a Minority government last I looked ...

lets take a deep breath here and look back shall we .....

a proposal has been brought forth ....
it was established that the OAA brought it forth
People gave their opinions ...and in esseince voted (for all the good it would do)
the minority that support this proposal are pleading their case

I personally have nothing against Cross bows or Gunbows as they are called by most kids that play video games (google the word Gunbow and see how much resident evil game stuff comes up)
Wikipedia the word gunbow ... and the article for crossbow comes up ... which is it .... is it a bow ... or is it a gun ....neither one of us is nearly qualified to anser that ...

ok as I have asked before and not gotten a straight anser ...But I will re-phrase so its a bit easier for you to understand.

Logically .... How can the FCA endorse a product a product that is not legal in all the territory that the FCA encompasses.
By territory I mean from Coast to coast to coast and in all displines of archery ... including Target and hunting (as your buddy Sean mentioned the FCA does deal with hunting aspect of the sport as well)

I personally dont see how it can and still remain reputable, I think thats the word I am looking for.
Prove to me otherwise ... Thats what I asked .. and you couldnt ...and started going on with mindless dribble to wash the true question out .... its been a week or so ... maybe you have thought about it ... I have and I still cant figger out how the FCA can do it and not look retarded in the process

If the OAA, the BCAA, etc...want to bring in a Crossbow division ... thats great its legal to hunt with a crossbow in BC and Ontario ...the ATAA(Alberta target Archery assoc.) only deals with the target portion of acrhery so in theory they could have a division as well .... But a Federal Organisation that deals with both the Target and Hunting aspect of the sport best make certain all its i's are dotted and Ts crossed ... in at least one of its territories its totally illegal to have a a crossbow in wildlife habitat
based upon that fact alone the FCA should not create a crossbow division

[DsrtRat]

MA, I understand your concerns about the ABA leaving and I am sure the FCA would have to take that into account. I can't peak of numbers and will not attempt to like Mikey has as the acst about not vs yes in the FCA are not known at this point.

As or the clubs in your area, again I don't have all the facts but the reality is, why would a club in Alberta make any effort to accomodate a crossbow on the range? You can't hunt with them and there is an obvious, instant response regarding crossbows in taht part o the world. It would not be in a shop owners interest to even mention the word crossbow based on what I have seen on this forum.

I suspect this is all a big waste of cyber energy but I think the FCA should be allowed to investigate the possibility and see if it would be in the best interest o archers nationwaide to allow crossbows in events such as 3D tournaments.

[Mikey]

Actually I am worried that the ABA will once again pull out of the FCA. I spent a long time selling the FCA to previous ABA executive members and would like to see the ABA remain as part of the FCA.

The FCA membership has taken a beating recently, loosing most of its membership in Quebec which used to be the strongest affiliation.

I know many on the ABA executive and believe it wouldn't take much to see them pull out again. If it wasn't for the insurance I don't think we would have ever seen the ABA reaffliate.


Not sure on the safety aspect but I know one proshop in Calgary sells xbows but doesn't allow them to be shot as his private insurance carry would classify him in a similar manner as a gun ranged due to the ability of it to be left loaded. The second proshop also doesn't allow xbows but I am unaware as to why. Neither outdoor range in this area allows xbow use either, again I am unaware as to why.

Kev ... as far as the shop thing goes ... its for the same reason ... I asked both owners one day a few years back

[HOYTarcher]

Interestingly enough bow proshops in Calgary and at least one outside of Edmonton all sell crossbows and have them displayed in the stores. Don't think it has hurt them at all.

[Sean]

Wow this thread still going, Yuo should know that the insurance side of it is pretty much a dead issue since the very same insurance company has been insuring clubs,ranges,organisations for years now that have x-bows.

It is from what I see more a personal issue than anything rational, some like them some don't some see no issue at all.

I was unaware of any direct propoasl to the FCA since the artical Jude posted was from the OAA website only a few weeks ago, if it was dicussed fine if it gets voted on by the Provinces fine. It isn't going to be the end of the FCA if it gets in or out. From what I see myths of the x-bow still hold over from anything truthfull.

I mentioned in another thread about a fellow at the 3-D's that was concerned that a x-bow once cocked had to be shot, when I showed him that it wasn't true he didn't say oh my mistake, it actually made him even more angry, it is these type of people that scream the loudest.

They are and have been a non issue for decades here but if they are some paria in your parts then thats a learning curve for you.

We found that x-bows have more commanalities with others forms of archery than not with the only real hold out being that it stays at full draw when cocked, from my perspective and only mine if it was a real benifite the scores would be much higher and harvest rates would also be higher since niether is how much of a beneifite is it really.

[russ]

Sean, my memory fails me - what was the name of the insurance co?

[Sean]

B.F. Lorenzetti & associates

Type - general liability

insurer- Lloyds through Premiere Insurance underwriting services

Policy no. 5001431S as of Jan1/07

amount- 5 million CDN per occurrence


the summary has no exclusion of x-bows

[russ]

Thanks Sean, I did manage to find it on the website after I posted.

[Travski]

In my opinion for the FCA's interest why not send out a ballot to each current member and have them submitt it and see what comes of it. I personally dont care one way or the other, if they do the more the merrier on the line.

DSRTRAT
For your information Xbows are allowed in Alberta, they are included in the General season along with rifles and muzzleloaders and bows and shotguns. They just are not included in Archery season.

When I first got my original PAL when the new firearms licences came into effect on the back of the card it stated I could not buy a crossbow with out first showing this and registering it. Not sure the reasoning on that but obviously the Fed Gov't had their own ideas to include them as a firearm at one point. Now they are not included in the PAL system.

I will vote for whatever will benifit the sport of archery.


Travis

[Sean]

The reason for the addition to the PAL was solely that a lady was killed in Ottawa with one just before the process was started. It actually was never implimented because they soon realised that it was impossible to regulate since they don't have legal serial numbers on them, it was a case jumping on a bandwagon for political expediency. When the liberal government put in place to registration system they didn't listen to anything or one that had any expertise in this area, guns included, now look at the system pretty much non existant since the real truth gets out eventualy.

[jhooey]

When I started this thread, my intention was to get a "yes, no, don't care" response not another debate. I will bring the issue up at the FCA Board of Directors meeting at the end of March. Please let your FCA Rep know your views and a decision will be made then. Thanks for your input.