FCA making bad decisions...need opinions

[willyqbc]

Ok so heres the back ground, every year at the FCA 3D nationals they hold the FCA meeting pertaining to 3D where all the provincial reps sit and decide what is good for the sport. Well this year they passed a resolution that I find absolutely ludicrous. They have decided that all children cub age 12-13 yrs old) and younger will not be permitted to shoot with their parents but instead the parents will be required to provide a non-shooting chaperone for the young shooter. I would like to hear all your thoughts on this as i am in contact with the new FCA VP of 3D regarding this issue and she would like to get a feel for what people think of this new protocol. I will not try to sway opinion just yet but I am definately for having this reversed.

Thanks
Chris

[sniper]

What prompted this action Chris?

What set of actions has brought this about?

[willyqbc]

I'm not sure what prompted it as it was a closed meeting. It was put forth by Quebec and seconded by Manitoba and the motion was carried. The sense I get from talking to my rep (who was vague) is that perhaps there are some folks out there who have a problem being flighted with kids. The other issue I believe is that a person who should be rightfully flighted with a certain group may get bumped down a group due to group size if there is a kid added to the group. Again, some of that is speculation on my part but there is certainly better solutions to these issues than what has been adopted.

Chris

[Baggie]

When they say no parents do they mean a non-shooting parent is also not allowed? I'm sure they wouldn't mean that but I just want to be sure. Are they worried that the parent is helping too much with the kids?

I don't think this is a very good idea as I believe that most kids feel more comfortable shooting with Mom or Dad shooting beside them.

[Twisted Canuck]

Yep, bad idea. I love shooting with my kids, best part of archery is that it is great for family time, I have had 4 of mine at a time shooting at our club's tournements, with myself and an understanding adult to help score...also shot nationals in Lethbridge with my 11 yr old daughter. First two rounds, one in my group was great as far as shooting with a young'un, and one was there to shoot competitively and it was clear they didn't like shooting with a young'un. Too bad. Push the little one's out, and the sport will suffer in the long run.

[Dillershortbow]

I have no kids shooting i did have my grandson shooting for a while .He made shooting a lot more fun ..but he was distracting.Now not everyone wants to shoot with kids . I have heard a very good shooter say i do the family thing on the first day the second day i want to shoot with the men. There is other things that can be done .Parent and kids maybe should shoot in groups together. Our i am sure some non competitve shooter could take a group of kids around. But to make hard a fast rules like this will only harm the sport.

[Mikey]

I have heard of this floating up and down .... whereas I can see and understand where the proposition comes from .... I think its to make Nationals a bit more competive atmosphere .... which I find funny because you never did have to qualify to shoot at the National Championships .... But at nationals I think it should be up to the host club to provide a chaparone for each kid group. As far as local club type shoots I think it should be up to the local club ....But In my Humble opinion it would be stupid for the clubs to go with this proposed rule ....

Putting this rule forth for Local club Shoots I hereby nominate the FCA for the 2007 Head up the ass award

[russ]

This is a very bad idea, flat out bad for the sport.

The FCA is on crack if they think this will help the sport some how.

[dropzone]

One of the things I've always appreciated about archery is that it's a family sport. I love shooting with my daughter and the fact that we have a shared interest in the sport. Shooting with the kids is also a great opportunity to mentor them, because let's face it, they are the future of the sport.

I don't think parents and children should be deprived of the right to shoot together just because some people don't like shooting with kids. Why should the rules be revised to suit these people at the expense of families who want to shoot together? There's gotta be a better way of dealing with the situation that doesn't alienate families. Also, having to provide a non-shooting chaperone for the kids could prove to be a big hassle and headache.

Sounds like a bunch of BS to me! ****es me off actually.

[willyqbc]

Mikey, just to clear things up a bit, this rule is to be applied to the Nationals only, I don't think they intend for it to be adopted on a local level.

here is the actual motion from the meeting minutes


4.2 3D chaperones – non-shooters

As for target/field nationals, if parents are sending or bringing youth to the 3D nationals, the family is responsible to provide a non-shooting chaperone. If the parents are shooting, the youth archer will shoot with the youth groups, not with the adults.



MOTION #3D2007-06 To add to the FCA rulebook that adults bringing cubs, pre-cubs or peewees to shoot the 3D nationals, must supply a non-shooting chaperone.

Moved by: QC Seconded by: MB Carried

[Mikey]

At Nats I understand it ...that said i dont nessarilly agree with it ...but I understand it ...But That said ... I beleive it should be up to the host club to provide 1 or 2 adult supervisors per group of cubs as opposed to non shooting parents etc... whether that be club members or a call for Volunteers from other clubs/provinces there as Non-shooters it dont matter

Very rarly in my expiriance anyway does alot of club members actually shoot in the National championships.

Once again ...I think its attemp to make Nats a more competive atmosphere

[acearchery]

I can see both sides of this issue!.... As a host club for sohoots (Not Nats)

I have had adult shooters tell me that if there is a kid in their group they will not participate....

I have had some kids ask me to please don't put me with that grouchy person!....

I have had parents ask to shoot with their kids and some have asked specifically to not shoot with their kids!.....

At Nat's I believe a potential solution could be to have a "judge/chaperone" go with the kids that may help bring the fun back in!....

or maybe we could ask the kids.... are they not FCA members too!.....

Let's face it groups sometimes need to be busted.... adults or kids!.....Thus the reason for flighting....

The most important question is what would be FUNNEST for kids.....

[Mikey]

Holy hell ACarcher and I agree on something;)

to further my response re: chaparone supplied by host club and/or Volunteer sheet etc... I would like to propose that a childs relation cannot chaparone that childs group...
the reason being, while I am not totally certain why this came about I speculate it may be a group speed issue, on course coaching, and general grumpiness of some shooters that feel that Nats should be a highly competive event. the childs relitive not with the childs group would eliminate any potential pencil whipping, or on course coaching ....in theory ...not every theory is perfect but I beleive this one is fair

Now Please No-one get me wrong .. I am 100% for kids in the sport and totally support Judes Case in triing to overturn this rule .... But I am also knowledgable enogh not to hold my breath and triing to put forth viable alternatives.

In my case ...as my wife does not shoot 3D it would not be a problem ...however in WillyQBCs case where his wife shoots, he shoots and his kids shoot (tho I am not certain of his youngest and 3D) at anyrate if this rule were to pass as it sits right now written above ...either Sam or Chris would have to sit out of the tournament so they could walk the course with Michael. or make other arriangments for a friend or something to accompany them ...potentially expensive if flights are involved... Not acceptible in my opinion, the biggest challange against the FCA 3D program is numbers at nationals this rule will decrease the number of participants for sure

[dropzone]

In sanctioned shoots are there not two sets of score cards? If so cheating is eliminated. At the shoots that I have been to there has always been at least 2 grown ups with a group of children. So cheating is eliminated as in course couching. This is my 2 cents worth but with inflation its not worth much...

[jhooey]

I believe that is a very important and complex issue. I hope you will bear with a lengthy comment.

According to the FCA FIELD/TARGET Hosting agreement, “FCA provides the opportunity for all archers to compete at the Championships; young archers however are still the responsibility of their parents. All Cubs must name their chaperone on the registration form. In the Field, chaperones who are family members shooting at the same time can not have the Cub re-assigned to their adult target butt. If the young archer cannot score by themselves without help, or he/she requires supervision, the parent/chaperon must provide this. It is not the Host Committee’s responsibility to supply chaperones or score for competitors (except wheelchair).” Now they have added it to the 3D agreement. This only mentions CUBS, but will include Pre-Cubs and Peewees for 3D.

It is my understanding that this came about because some archers, who are competitive, do not want the distraction of kids in their groups. We must admit that, sometimes, they are distracting. However, some adults in the group may be more distracting than a child would be. Top athletes are trained to ignore all distractions. Maybe they should look at it as putting their training to the test. :D

I don’t believe that Cubs (13 & 14 year olds) need a chaperone. They are old enough and usually experienced enough to shoot in a group of their own. At the 2006 Outdoor 3D Championship, the Cubs shot on their own and did a great job (except for some adding mistakes).

Peewees are not an issue because they have their own course and, therefore, do not shoot on the adult courses. The parents supervise them when they have breaks in their own shooting schedules.

Pre-cubs (10 to 12 years olds) are the real issue. A 12 year old is probably capable of shooting on his/her own. They can be put in groups with the Cubs. Therefore, it is the 10 & 11 years old who will need chaperones.

In 2006 in Regina, there were 9 Pre-cubs. I don’t know how old they were, but, assuming they were 10 & 11, there would have been 2 groups with 4 chaperones. In 2007 in Winnipeg, there were 14 Pre-cubs. Again, assuming they were all 10 & 11, there would have been 3 groups and required 6 chaperones. All archers must be double scored. That means that two chaperones would be needed for each group. The outdoor numbers are close to the same. The question is who the chaperones should be. If they are non-shooters, will they be able to assist in case of equipment failure? If they are shooters, should we expect them to not shoot in the Championship? Will the kids be comfortable shooting without their parents? Are we putting the kids into a situation that is too competitive at this young age? I am sure some kids would prefer to shoot with their peers and some would rather shoot with parent.

Another consideration is that Indoor 3D and Outdoor 3D are completely different when it comes to the number of targets shot at a station. When a group is shooting one target outdoors, the adults shoot and then the child walks up to shoot. All arrows are on the same target. Indoor, the line is the same and the targets are different. It adds to the length of scoring time required if a group has to go to four or five targets instead of three. This can become a problem with keeping to the schedule that the Organizing Committee has established.

I think what this whole issue really boils down to is what is best for the future of 3D archery. In order to continue, we need young archers who enjoy the atmosphere and the competition. We are seeing lower numbers than expected at Nationals. If we discourage them when they are young, who will be there in the future? Will these young people continue in the sport? Will their kids be archers?

[Twisted Canuck]

Well written Jude. I appreciate your balanced point of view.

I currently have 4 kids who shoot, two regularily and two on occasion but becoming more interested. My oldest will be turning 13 in Jan, so moving up to Cubs, and my son is 9....the other two are younger.

Just ponting this out so you can see the position this puts me in, not commenting on my virility... :D


Anyway, the whole point of 3D for me is shooting with the kids, and making friends at the various shoots we go to. Hannah and I went to the Nationals in Lethbridge, and she actually took bronze there which we were really pleased with. We are really debating going to Dauphin next year, because she won't be allowed to shoot with me....even though we would like to go, that may be the deciding factor for us. Its not about 'coaching', or being competitive or any of that hockey parent stuff (I am a hockey parent too actually, but that gets wayyyyy tooo political for me)....

Its all about Hannah and I shooting together because we really like to. Its that simple. Its too bad that becasue of her age, she now has to shoot with the cubs, chaperoned, instead of with her dad. The Lethbridge Nationals were a great experience for both of us, and we'd love to do it again...I wonder if the organizing club can't just put parent child groups together in such a way that the competive folks won't be troubled by us bothersome family types....??

Seems that if the FCA is really family friendly, and really wants to see this sport grow and draw more archers, they need to take a much harder look at the issue, because if you are going to cater strictly to the competetive shooters on this issue, you will see the numbers in attendance at the nationals drop, guaranteed. At that point, you may as well make it an exclusive, qualified shoot, if competing is the main issue. There are lots of great family friendly shoots for us to go to besides the nationals....Just don't know if it is going to benefit in the long run.

My .02........

[jhooey]

I should have posted that these are my thoughts and not those of the 3D committee or Executive committee. I would like to hear the views of archers from across Canada - those with kids and those without. I will then take it to the 3d reps.

"Twisted Canuck"
Your comments are very valid. How would Hannah feel about shooting with other girls her age or boys her age? Would she be comfortable? Would it affect her performance? During the outdoor season you would be able to shoot with her to get her ready for Nationals.

[rluedtke]

I too am against this ruling. I can understand some people not wanting to shoot with kids but I think there needs to be a better way of dealing with it. My son and I shoot together all over the province - its what makes archery so enjoyable for me.

If this rule is enforced it could also mean the difference between us being able to shoot the Nationals or not, as often its just the two of us traveling together. If I need to provide a chaperone we simply may have to pass on shooting on the Nationals and I know that would be a big disappointment for both of us but him in particular.

[rluedtke]

Guess I should have read a little bit more (missed the second page) before I replied.

I should add that while my son and I enjoy shooting together, he (Josh) will be turning 13 this year. He's definitely in it for the competition and would be completely comfortable shooting with a group of 13 & 14 year olds. I'd venture a guess that he's better informed of the rules and scoring than many of the adults we have shot with over the years.

We too were planning on making the trip to Dauphin this year. If the ruling is upheld we may decide not to go - either that or I'll have to act as the chaperone which means one less shooter in the competition.

[Twisted Canuck]

I should have posted that these are my thoughts and not those of the 3D committee or Executive committee. I would like to hear the views of archers from across Canada - those with kids and those without. I will then take it to the 3d reps.

"Twisted Canuck"
Your comments are very valid. How would Hannah feel about shooting with other girls her age or boys her age? Would she be comfortable? Would it affect her performance? During the outdoor season you would be able to shoot with her to get her ready for Nationals.

Hi Jude,
to answer your question, I'm sure Hannah would be comfortable shooting with kids her age, boys and girls, and I don't think her shooting performance would be affected...although she does tend to get down on herself when she misjudges a shot, and it affects subsequent shots, so I've been having to help her 'shake it off', and concentrate on each shot....but she is maturing in that dept. She and I, and my son shot a number of times this year: Our indoor, Dawson Creek's indoor, our two outdoor, and Camp Hehoha's shoot, (which is just fabulous and everyone who shoots 3D in Alberta should go to and help raise money for an excellent cause!!).

As well, the three of us shot our Club's league shoots, so we get in lots of good practice....

Despite this, I know that Hannah would still prefer to shoot with me, and I really enjoy shooting with her. Its just the best part of it for us, spending time together doing something we both enjoy. And on the rare occasion, she actually outshoots her dad from her stake, which is the best icing you could put on her cake...so she is competetive, not sure where she gets it from.... :) . As I posted earlier, if Hannah and I couldn't shoot the Nationals in Dauphin together, I think we'd skip it, and do a couple of shoots in Alberta for the same $....like Red Deer's MOAS, Camp Hehoha (of course!), and yes we are thinking of shooting the indoor Nationals in Lethbridge too....I have family and friends there, so a good excuse to visit....

Thanks for your concern and awareness regarding this issue. Tom

[sammy99]

I know that as a parent of a 7 year old that shoots in the precub, not the peewee category, and a 9 year old, that I would not be at all comfortable sending them out with a host club provided chaperone.

Also, for thought, having the host club provide chaperones for the precub groups could potentially put the host club in a difficult situation. If something were to happen out on course, injuries, personality issues etc, things could get out of hand quickly.

What could be the answer is that if you, as a shooting parent, want to shoot with your children, you are automatically flighted with other shooting parents and children. This may disadvantage the shooting parents, but it is a choice that we make to shoot with our kids. It is real disappointing to have to even talk about this issue, as the youth are the future of any sport/organization. Any rules that might be restrictive to them competing are no good in my book.

Sam

[jhooey]

At the 2006 Outdoor Nationals in Lethbridge, the Pre-cubs shot with their parents. We did have one complaint from a man who didn't want to shoot with kids. We put him in a different group and continued on. The problem was solved. With over 300 shooters, we had one complaint. I think that is remarkable.

When we grouped the archers, we tried to ensure that if a parent was shooting with a child that there was only one child in the group.

I think that the suggestion of parents with kids shooting together is a very good one. It would create a little more work for the organizing committee, but could be done.

If this was to be done, how would you suggest flighting the archers for the last day? It has been an unwritten policy that the archers be flighted for the last round according to their scores. If an archer has a child and ends up in a different flight from the other parent he/she has been shooting with, how do you suggest it be handled?

[acearchery]

We did have one complaint from a man who didn't want to shoot with kids.

My two cents on this!..... The people that complain about shooting with kids because of distraction are in the wrong sport!..... As a competitor,coach,dad and volunteer this really ticks me off because this selfish attitude is what is killing our sport!.... These people do not care about the future of our sport except for how they may benefit.

I love 3D because it is a family sport!.....

I would love to see both options open to the kids....

Remember when we were kids sometimes we like to do things with our buddies instead of our parents!..... And there were times weliked to do things with our parents instead of our buddies.... and times we like the best of both worlds!.... parents and buddies!......

At Nationals kids may see their buddies that they have not seen for a year!.....

You know when faced with this decisionas I have a four year old that has went to 5 shoots this year, shooting longbow and absolutely loves the sport, seeing him go up and get a medal (they saved the biggest one for him) was one of the best days of my life. he wore it for a month straight every day..... If faced with this situation.... I would place myselfin the NC class and shoot with my kids..... if there was a problem they could be NC too.....

Now what would the point of going to Nationals!.... We could get same enjoyment shooting the weekend on our home range for a lot cheaper... and what does that do to shoot attendance!.....

You know when I see kids I have shot with, become friends of, whether I coach them or not, or sired them or not....go up and get a well-deserved medal is what keeps me coming back!....

As my sons get older it is very important the influences they have in their life.... Some of the best kids I have seen to be their role models.... are our young archers!...

Seeing an 11 year old take 4 youngsters at a 3D shoot and sacrifide her own time shooting to set up a mini-3d with the kids,have them shoot, and give them prizes and make them feel very special....... is the best role model I have ever seen....

Is she competitive.... She won the Alberta Target Championships hands down and even beat the boys score. She shot one arrow (a 10x) before the buzzer and as a result was 3 points under the Canadian Record.

[Twisted Canuck]

At the 2006 Outdoor Nationals in Lethbridge, the Pre-cubs shot with their parents. We did have one complaint from a man who didn't want to shoot with kids. We put him in a different group and continued on. The problem was solved. With over 300 shooters, we had one complaint. I think that is remarkable.

When we grouped the archers, we tried to ensure that if a parent was shooting with a child that there was only one child in the group.

I think that the suggestion of parents with kids shooting together is a very good one. It would create a little more work for the organizing committee, but could be done.

If this was to be done, how would you suggest flighting the archers for the last day? It has been an unwritten policy that the archers be flighted for the last round according to their scores. If an archer has a child and ends up in a different flight from the other parent he/she has been shooting with, how do you suggest it be handled?

You may have heard only one complaint, but for the first two rounds we shot, I had one fine gentleman in our group who I still see at shoots and regard highly who was excellent with my daughter, and one 'gentleman' who though he was generally nice to my daughter, never stopped complaining the whole two rounds we shot......lots of FCA politics, but also about not flighting the first two rounds (based on 'reputation') and having to (unspoken) shoot with a kid.....and then the last couple rounds I shot with ACArcher and another gent from down south, and it was a blast.....

So just because you don't hear complaints, doesn't mean they don't happen. And as a parent, we put a big check mark beside the names of these folks, as future 'don't shoot withs'.....

As far as flighting for last day of shoot, trial and error...see what happens. Thats the best way to learn what works. If you can just stop people from Kvetching about it....

[Mikey]

I know that as a parent of a 7 year old that shoots in the precub, not the peewee category, and a 9 year old, that I would not be at all comfortable sending them out with a host club provided chaperone.

Also, for thought, having the host club provide chaperones for the precub groups could potentially put the host club in a difficult situation. If something were to happen out on course, injuries, personality issues etc, things could get out of hand quickly.

What could be the answer is that if you, as a shooting parent, want to shoot with your children, you are automatically flighted with other shooting parents and children. This may disadvantage the shooting parents, but it is a choice that we make to shoot with our kids. It is real disappointing to have to even talk about this issue, as the youth are the future of any sport/organization. Any rules that might be restrictive to them competing are no good in my book.

Sam

Some good thoughts here Sam, Parents shooting with their kids in separate groups ... the problem I see here is, and please dont get me wrong,: limited number of parents shooting with pre-cubs etc ... all grouped together and those parents all shoot a differant class ...If I recall correctly you shoot BHR-F .... the rest of the BHR-F might shoot course A in the morning and you with your group of parents may shoot Course C in the morning ...it may be raining or foggy etc ...course A might be a critter type course while C might be a Safari type course ....the next day you shoot course A while its clear and brite and sunny and you post a good score .... I see potential complaints ...espcailly if you medal ...Knowing you the way I do I know you probally would anyway ....

I dont know about the rest of you but when the weather is terrible I would rather shoot a large animal course than a critter course for scores.

Allan ... I fully understand where you are comming from .... but it is a national championship ... its very name dictates it be a competive atmosphere ... however that said ... Because there is no qualifing for this Championship its also marketed as just a big 3D shoot ...I have never been able to wrap my head fully around that concept. Maybe its time for the FCA to **** or get off the pot and make up their minds which direction to go with the National championship. Maybe set up a 3D Award of excellence system ... where top 3 at provincial champs in each div get funded to go to Nats and have the all the provincial champs run on one course while rest of the national participants (kids and all) shoot the other 3 courses ...and if someone *****es about kids ...the simple anser would then be .... "I guess you shouldve placed better at provincials"

[jhooey]

Having been one the organizing committee of large shoots for years, I think that the classes can be kept on the same courses without too much difficulty. Indoor it is defiinitely not an issue.

I would hate to see us go to an "elitist" National Championship. I think it should be competitive in nature for archers who are in that stage of their development. However, I do want to keep the FUN in the sport (especially for the kids).

One solution would be to:
1. not flight for the last round
2. ask the competitors whether they would prefer not to shoot in a group with a youth

It would add time to the organization of the groups, but would lessen the work of having to flight the archers.

[dropzone]

There seems to be allot of controversy over children shooting. As the father of the 11 year old that AC was referring to, She is very professional about this sport and loves to shoot. She has such passion for the sport and plans to go places with it.
When children are shooting in your group, just remember that we at one time were the same. Teach them, explain to them what the proper protocol is and let them enjoy the sport.
Now as we move to the possibility of cheating in the sport. Well there is cheating in every sport. I have witnessed a middle aged person shooting that does not like to shoot with children and was promoting very bad habits. This person considers themself as a pro, well if that is professionalism then we need to start over, hence the children.
As for equipment tampering in the sport, other sports implement several checks several times to keep continuity. If they can do it with diplomacy so could we.
I maybe on the wrong course with this post if so let me know.

[Mikey]

.................
One solution would be to:
1. not flight for the last round
2. ask the competitors whether they would prefer not to shoot in a group with a youth

It would add time to the organization of the groups, but would lessen the work of having to flight the archers.

that is by far and large the best suggestion so far ... now I can see people complaining about not being flighted ...because face it ... archers fear change it would seem ... reason being ... "I wont be able to see how So and so is doing" ...my solution to that is ..."tough $#!^ "

I motion to have a vote on this subject ...the motion being being word for word Judes suggestion above with the slight change of

2. Ask competitors on tournament registration form if they would prefer not to shoot in group with youth archers, yes or no.... yes being a group of all adults in their class, no meaning that archer might get grouped with youth archers


anyone second that motion

if there is a vote ... not that it means anything right now .... I would ask that the 3D director of the FCA to bring this simple yet effective solution forth to the FCA commitee

[Travski]

I second that motion Mike

With out kids we have nothing, besides I have shot my best rounds while shooting with kids I am more relaxed and not worrying about my shooting but just having fun

Trav

[Len]

I think kids should shoot with their parents especially at the cub level. Most parents would have to stop shooting if they couldn't get someone to go with their kids. I think the FCA needs to re-evaluate this decision. Don't they want to promote the sport? I feel that alot of kids would stop shooting if they couldn't shoot with their parents or guardian.

[acearchery]

I would still flight the last round.... if a parent is flighted then their child can shoot with them and make room in the group.

If someone does not want a kid in their group..... Too bad this is a family sport... deal with it!...

As it is with all the whining about this and that.....

It is time to show the furure of our sport that we respect, honour and love them.... by actually spending time with them.

If I was a 10 year old and my dad or mom actually placed in a top flight and got to shoot with a champion it would be a lifetime thrill!....

My definition of Champion is a top flight archer who is unselfish and helps our sport (ie. likes kids)..... I will admit there are times that shooting with kids around sometimes can be trying on ones patience but then i realise it is me who needs to adjust!....

It still burns my fur when i think of a fellow who told me " I don't come to 3D shoots to be pestered by kids!".....

We do not need that attitude in our sport..... and Nationals is the biggest reflection of our sport!....

Let's make room for the kids.... after all they get to make and choose the quality of care facility we will be in!.......when we are old!......

One last thing!.... 3D's roots are in hunting..... the most powerful picture in hunting as a Parent and Child hunting together!......

[Canadian Archer]

Hi my name is Samara and I am 12 years old and I really love archery!

I my self enjoy shooting with my dad and if I could not shoot with him I probably wouldn't do very good...
Shooting with my dad is fun (especially when I beat him :super_hap ) and he encourages me and says stuff like "you will do better next time" or "good job!"
What makes archery special is being able to shoot with my family and the people I look up to. And thats part of what makes the sport fun for me.
if they are worried about cheating just think it wont feel that great of an accomplishment V.S. winning fair and square.
If they are worried about equipment tampering with the cubs deal with it the same way you would deal with it with adults. I dont think it is fair that just because of a few people that are dishonest or dont like shooting with kids should ruin it for the many families who want to shoot together.

[Twisted Canuck]

You tell 'em!! I agree 100%. :)

[Mikey]

Hi my name is Samara and I am 12 years old and I really love archery!

I my self enjoy shooting with my dad and if I could not shoot with him I probably wouldn't do very good...
Shooting with my dad is fun (especially when I beat him :super_hap ) and he encourages me and says stuff like "you will do better next time" or "good job!"
What makes archery special is being able to shoot with my family and the people I look up to. And thats part of what makes the sport fun for me.
if they are worried about cheating just think it wont feel that great of an accomplishment V.S. winning fair and square.
If they are worried about equipment tampering with the cubs deal with it the same way you would deal with it with adults. I dont think it is fair that just because of a few people that are dishonest or dont like shooting with kids should ruin it for the many families who want to shoot together.


Well written Samara

[Travski]

Hi my name is Samara and I am 12 years old and I really love archery!

I my self enjoy shooting with my dad and if I could not shoot with him I probably wouldn't do very good...
Shooting with my dad is fun (especially when I beat him :super_hap ) and he encourages me and says stuff like "you will do better next time" or "good job!"
What makes archery special is being able to shoot with my family and the people I look up to. And thats part of what makes the sport fun for me.
if they are worried about cheating just think it wont feel that great of an accomplishment V.S. winning fair and square.
If they are worried about equipment tampering with the cubs deal with it the same way you would deal with it with adults. I dont think it is fair that just because of a few people that are dishonest or dont like shooting with kids should ruin it for the many families who want to shoot together.
Good job Samara we need more kids like you to voice your opinion. Keep up the good work and practice hard

Travis

[acearchery]

Attagirl!

[Mikey]

I still think Jude has put up the best suggestion to make the most people happy ....

3D has evolved beyond its hunting roots ... we should evolve with it

[acearchery]

Mikey if 3D changes anymore it will be a field shoot!....

We already are having backlash where "fun" shoots that are truer to hunting roots are getting better attendance than "sanctioned shoots" the pendulum has swung too far!..

Because the focus on "competition" There has to be a balance....

[acearchery]

Mikey I know we have been over this road before!... but there are 14000 hunters in Alberta and I and a few others are encouraging these hunter to attend 3D shoots!........

They have two concerns!....

1) Family
2) Fun like hunting

Number 1 is related to this post and #2 is indirectly related.

The day people had to get a have 2 bows to be competitive at 3D lowered the attendance at 3D shoots..... (because it "evolved")

Now there is a place for the competitive 3D'ers and a place for the hunters.... That is why there is the Hunter class..... based on Hunting equipment........

If we want to see shoot attendance increase we need to focus on encouraging novice shooters to try 3D and a few will get hooked like we are!.....
.....and.....what about the 13,500 other bowhunters in Alberta......How do we bring them back!.......

The things we do at the local level to promote 3D..... need to be reflected at the National Level!...... I believe 3D is a Family thing......

"I would hate to see us go to an "elitist" National Championship. I think it should be competitive in nature for archers who are in that stage of their development. However, I do want to keep the FUN in the sport (especially for the kids)."

Jude I agree in principle.... and have a few comments!....

How fun is it for a kid to be in a group that does not want them there!......
How fun is it for a kid to not shoot with their parents!......

and of course what about a liability issue!..... what kind of lawsuit could be brought against the FCA if a parent is forced onto not supervising their child (because they are shooting) and their child gets hurt.......

I feel PeeWees, Cubs and Pre-Cubs should be shooting with their parents or other legal guardian in attendance. If Parents are shooting then adding kids to that parent's group is just a facet of our sport. If there is a kid in my group then it is something that is just as much of a part of our sport as the weather, bugs, russ, and acarcher!....

This small item has other issues at stake!..... and we need to look at the whole picture!....

In 2-3 years my attendance at Nationals and 3D shoots in general is dependant upon whether or not it is a family focussed affair..... One thing I am looking forward to is having momma and 3 boys going to shoots together and having a blast.....

The best day of my life was this year when my almost 4 year old came with me on a Saturday and shot 2 rounds of 3D, recieved a medal and fell asleep on the 15 minute car ride home cltching it to his chest!...... I cannot tell you what more score was or any targets I may have hit or missed............because today that does not matter!

My son and I had a day together!....

[Dillershortbow]

So how about the older archers look around there are a lot of shooters getting kinda long in the tooth. I myself am 10 going on 53 and i love kids there is no more fun then shooting with some kids just not all.I have been flited a a major shoot with a guy who would not break up a family group. ma pa 2 kids grandpa and a friend plus the other 2 guys in hour flite. you think that was fun for me. some of us older guys have put in many years of kids hockey soccor baseball every thing a kid dos . so some people maybe just want to shoot without kids. do we just turf them out.

[russ]

Diller - do we turf you or the kids? That's the problem here - I've always accepted that I would be shooting with kids on occasion. I actually don't care one way or the other if they're in the group. They have just as much right to be on the course as I do. When there's a kid there, maybe it's better for me since I have to demonstrate better sportsmanship and set a good example. I think some people let too many little things bother them. Having kids in your group is a little thing. Not allowing kids to shoot because they can't find a chaperone, that to me is a big deal.

[Dillershortbow]

Seams like a simple fix like jude says put parents with kids in the same group. It may be kinda strange to you guys with young kids but after having three teenagers at once. its sure nice sometimes to be away from kids. that being said tomorrow i go to court to get visitation rites enforced so maybe i can shoot with my grandson again. he shot with me since he was 3

[Mikey]

Al ...I dont think you would get me wrong here but for the benifit of our audiance .... For the record I am totally supportive of kids in our sport.

Liability issues ... there is none ... If you would actually read the forms that we all sign when we register at Nats .... you would know that .... .... Each and every other organized sport on the planet can do it ...why not archery. For example ..when I was 8, 9 10 years old and Competive swimming ie: swim club ... I was being shipped off for the weekend on a charter bus with my team ...not my parents to attend swim meets in williams lake, prince rupert, terrace, kitimat, Vancouver, Victoria , penticton amoung the most noable cities in winter club ... in summer club I traveled the same way to Quesnel, mackenzie (in parents vehicles ...not nessesarily my parents) by Team bus to Dawson creek, ft st john, Ft nelson, Whitehorse (26 freaking hours worth on a charter bus ) ... Now I realize times have changed some in the last 20 some years ... and dont think for a second that my parents just dumped me and didnt support me ... they put in countless hours when PG hosted meets ... my mother acted as team chaparone on more occations ... even on meets that I didnt go to (by the way I only listed meets that I have been to without my parents present ...the list is much larger if I include the ones they were present for while I was 10 and under)

While yes I agree the Archery is a family sport ... shouldnt it also be a social sport as well ... and its part of growing up to socialize with your peers. Both my wife (her area of expertise and degrees is on child development ...for the audiances benifit) and I agree on this point. we all know that "future hunters" do a course by themselves ...usually in groups of 2-3 kids with one parent or gaurdian at nats allready ... Mind you at any time ...

I understand the veiw expressed here by alot of people ... I really do ... and I am not triing to tell ya'll how to raise yer kids ... because if someone tries to tell me how to raise Mine ... i would break out the angry redneck card ... I just triing to offer up a differant point of veiw

[dropzone]

Hope this never happens but could you imagine the consequences of an accidental miss fire at a swim meet. Not making light of your experience as a swimmer but as you have said things have changed over the years.
Not each and every sport has 300 fps pojectiles flying past them. So signing a waiver is very small considering if a MINOR gets injured or if a minor injures someone else. Only parents know their childes behavior. Minors can sign anything they want up to the age of 16 and not be held responsible so the liability lyes on the chaperone or guardian.
I personally would not sign a waiver if this is what you are talking about at the NATs inregards to my child unless I'm present to uphold the guidelines of any insurance policy. ANYONE can have an accident. God forbid that we never have one.
When I'm with my daughter at these shoots we practice very safe procedures. I strongly believe that if children are shooting in this sport we as parents should be there to support them and also guide them in keeping this sport safe.

Heck I will have to read all of the previous post to make sure I'm ranting about the correct subject. :sos:

[Duggernaut]

I dont have a problem shooting with kids at all. At a major tournament like the nationals though, if my group has a kid in it, then to be fair, every other group in my class should have a kid in it as well. Hopefully I could have Samarra in mine.

[Mikey]

I understand what your saying Zone .... but Fita and feild allready have this rule in place and in my research that I conducted over night I have yet to find in inncident published world wide... yes ..there is always a first time ....but in my opinion ... its gonna happen regaurdless. Archery doesnt have dogpiles of up to 10 kids with razor sharp blades strapped to thier feet either ... and there isnt more of a family participant sport in Canada than Hockey

and for the record ... archery sports are not as dangerous as firearm sports ...such as Biathalon ... are you gonna tell me that a parent is always beside a 10 year old Cross country skiing thru the woods with a .22 strapped to their back. with live ammo? that said there are officers at each shooting station ... the 3D archery proposition is going one better and having a chaparone walk with each group.
During Moto sports is there a parent holding the kids hand in cart racing , motocross / X-C or Hare scramble races and in the case of Hare scramble the track is a series of 3 loops in the woods ...X-C racing is point a to point b usaully 5 or 10 KMs away ...yes their are track officials on track but I know first hand they are not aways within eyesight of each other.

I am just saying that archery is not the only "dangerous " sport that this agegroup we are talking partakes in ... and those sports seem to get on well.


It would be a change for sure and we all know that archers fear change ...for one reason or another

[Twisted Canuck]

I dont have a problem shooting with kids at all. At a major tournament like the nationals though, if my group has a kid in it, then to be fair, every other group in my class should have a kid in it as well. Hopefully I could have Samarra in mine.


....leastways, no more problems than you have shooting with adults.... :286:

...and then there are the crossover adults-acting-like-children that we all get to shoot with sometimes, that gives us good practice too, eh?? :laugh:

[acearchery]

Mikey...just an observation.... in hockey parents and kids are not normally together on ice, or in motcross, etc. competing.... 3D is different..... do we want to start being like other sports!?.....

Well unless you are Gordie Howe or something....

One advantage to having a kid in a group is ithelps my pottymouth... although I hadto be reminded a few times.... but I would rather not have the potty mouth!..... so Thanks for keeping me in line.... TC, CA, DZ!......

When there is a kid in the group it may helpus all with our behaviour!.....

I do see all sides to this... DSB I see your point.... the kids we are talking about are 14 and under.......

You know it is good for kids too.... because then they learn proper etiquet....eticut...eti... MANNERS......

[RodS]

I left a 3D shoot once because they separated a father and son on the second day, was the boys first shoot. I disagreed with it and voiced my opinion and went home. This year was the first year I was back to that shoot since. They don't do that any longer, and I think it was wrong. Would do the same thing over again given the circumstances.

[jhooey]

I am visiting the kids for Thanksgiving, so haven't read post for a few days. Sorry.

What I am reading is that the majority of you believe that kids are our future and that we need to have them shooting with parents, guardians, or, in my case, grandparents. I love shooting with my grandson (6 years old). He brings the fun back. Cody Draper's son, Justin, and my grandson are best of friends and love to shoot together. So, Cody and I take them with us. There is always another adult or two. Do we have fun? YES Are we competitive? YES Can we concentrate? YES When the boys are nine, will we shoot with them at Nationals? I hope so. Will my grandson want to shoot with me? I don't know if a 9 year old boy will want to shoot with the 50+ ladies. If he keeps shooting a "stick", he'll probably want to shoot with "Grandpa Hooey".

I have seen comments from BC, NS, and AB. I wonder what the people in the other provinces are thinking. I think they will feel the same as all of you.

I have read the FCA rules several times to find the rule about chaperones. I may be missing it, but I couldn't find it anywhere except in the "Hosting Manuals". These are not "Rules", but suggestions as far as I can see. Does anyone know where the rule is in the rulebook?

Every archer at the Nationals must be an FCA member and, therefore, has liability insurance. I have seen some adults that were more unsafe than most of the kids. I think that the parents of young archers do a great job in teaching them safety.

I have some questions that I would like responses to---------
1. Do you think Cubs (13 & 14 year olds) are responsible and competent enough to shoot on their own?
2. Is it necessary to flight the last round?
3. Would it be incorrect to ask archers if they prefer not to shoot with youth?

If you have friends in other provinces, could you see what their thoughts are? Indoor Nationals are coming in March, we need to know how to handle this issue.

[Twisted Canuck]

1. Yes (doesn't mean they should though!)
2. Not on my part, but I don't mind either way.....I actually like flighting because you meet and shoot with new people, enhances the social/competetive side of the shoot.
3. No

[Dillershortbow]

No i don`t think 4 youths should shoot together

I would like to see fliteing in all rounds

yes ask them.

[rluedtke]

I am visiting the kids for Thanksgiving, so haven't read post for a few days. Sorry.

What I am reading is that the majority of you believe that kids are our future and that we need to have them shooting with parents, guardians, or, in my case, grandparents. I love shooting with my grandson (6 years old). He brings the fun back. Cody Draper's son, Justin, and my grandson are best of friends and love to shoot together. So, Cody and I take them with us. There is always another adult or two. Do we have fun? YES Are we competitive? YES Can we concentrate? YES When the boys are nine, will we shoot with them at Nationals? I hope so. Will my grandson want to shoot with me? I don't know if a 9 year old boy will want to shoot with the 50+ ladies. If he keeps shooting a "stick", he'll probably want to shoot with "Grandpa Hooey".

I have seen comments from BC, NS, and AB. I wonder what the people in the other provinces are thinking. I think they will feel the same as all of you.

I have read the FCA rules several times to find the rule about chaperones. I may be missing it, but I couldn't find it anywhere except in the "Hosting Manuals". These are not "Rules", but suggestions as far as I can see. Does anyone know where the rule is in the rulebook?

Every archer at the Nationals must be an FCA member and, therefore, has liability insurance. I have seen some adults that were more unsafe than most of the kids. I think that the parents of young archers do a great job in teaching them safety.

I have some questions that I would like responses to---------
1. Do you think Cubs (13 & 14 year olds) are responsible and competent enough to shoot on their own?
2. Is it necessary to flight the last round?
3. Would it be incorrect to ask archers if they prefer not to shoot with youth?

If you have friends in other provinces, could you see what their thoughts are? Indoor Nationals are coming in March, we need to know how to handle this issue.
Jude in answer to your questions:
1) The cubs I know (including my son) are responsible and competent enough to shoot on their own.
2) Flighting is nice (adds to the competition) but no absolutely necessary especially where kids are involved.
3)I wouldn't have any problems if some people were asked and chose not to shoot with kids.

[Travski]

This is my opinion on this and like my Dad used to say opinions are like asses everyone has them.

I would rather have people shooting with kids know matter what. The kids are our future if we do not keep them coming back we have no sport that we all love. If the 50+ gentlemen or ladies or the 34 year old refuse to shoot with a kid to damn bad, suck it up and shoot or go home. The kids are the ones we need to keep the sport going , if we turn them back we have nothing, if we turn a couple ignorant people away ohwell all the better for us.


1. I think the kids are prob capable to shoot by themselves but kids will be kids they should still have at least one shooting adult in the group
2 Flighting is ok, either way we are there to have fun. I can also see why some people do not want to be flighted. Lets say a man and a woman they live together but work 14 hours a day and only time they see each other to do anything is on the weekends at shoots, whynot let them shoot together and have some fun.

3 I think that they should not have the option myself what makes them any better than anyone else. If you get flighted and a person has a kid with them so what everyone will have fun if not go home


Travis

[Duggernaut]

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No it would not be incorrect.
4. We should also ask archers on the registration form if they are bilingual. A 3 on 1 situation kind of defeates the purpose of a busted group if you cant understand what they are talking about.

[acearchery]

The chaperone idea is found on fca website under 3D committee meeting:

Here are my answers!...
1) Yes with conditions: while some kids are very responsible, there may be some that do not know the protocol or rules.... there must be one experienced shooter in group... been to a sanctioned shoot before.

2) Yes: I like the flighting on last day for a few reasons:
a) Meet new people:
b) Funny how some people's score goes down when flighted!.. brings a dynamic into it.
c) For people who want to shoot with friends/spouse/family whatever... You have preceding rounds to do that....

3)Ask People if they are willing to have a kid in their group.: Only Because it is not fun for kids to have to shoot with someone who would rather not have them there. I would rather see people accept the fact that due to random chance there may be a kid in the group and deal with it!.... Could cater to the kid in group "haters" for the first rounds and then in flighting whatever happens....happens

Bottom line!.... This needs to be established and set so that everyone knows what the deal is before the get to the shoot and are disappointed.

More and more I think of shooting Trad.... Or just not attending shoots.... After all there are other family related activities other than archery where kids are welcomed and we can have fun together...... and there are those who if forced to shoot with kids will give up the sport

Who would you rather have in this sport and cater to:
Those who are willing to shoot with kids in their group......
Or those who don't want kids in their group!......?

[dropzone]

I would have to agree with Acarcher and Travski. That just about sums it up for me. I would still like to shoot with my daughter but if it does'nt happen I truly hope that the fellow archers are understanding of children.

[Mikey]

I have some questions that I would like responses to---------
1. Do you think Cubs (13 & 14 year olds) are responsible and competent enough to shoot on their own?
2. Is it necessary to flight the last round?
3. Would it be incorrect to ask archers if they prefer not to shoot with youth?

If you have friends in other provinces, could you see what their thoughts are? Indoor Nationals are coming in March, we need to know how to handle this issue.

My own personal Opinions

#1 Yes ...some wont be able to handle the responsibility but those are the ones at 30 they will still wont be able to ....
#2 two trains of thought here ... If groups are not originally assinged ... yes Flight on last day .... If groups are randomly assigned Not nessary in my opinion
#3 I dont beleive so ... I suspect the majority of the people dont mind ... but there are a few that would prefer not to ... If we turn them away we are no better than they are.

I also agree with Doug about the language thing .... should ask about Bi-lingual if a person is not ... hook em up with someone that is ...

[acearchery]

[QUOTE=Mikey]If we turn them away we are no better than they are.

QUOTE]

Maybe not better but more concerned about future of our sport!

I like to think this is a family sport.... If you don't like or want to shoot with kids.... take up golf!.....

[rafter_ad]

As a new shooter i have no kids to shoot with. but think that the future of 3 d is with the youth we have. if we do not make it fun and safe for each youth we have we lose them to other sports.as a person who helps new youth shooters get started in the sport i find it very wrong to make the kids shoot without the competive adult shooters there to help them along.as i said MAKE IT FUN AND SAFE and they will stay and if you want them to leave the sport take the fun out of it.i am always happy to have youth shooters around and will give them all the time they need to learn and have fun.we at archers edge have gone as far as to give free lessons twice a week and supply all the equipment the kids nmeed to keep them involved and off the streets this has been going on for 2 years and have more and more kids starting we also have some very competive youth shooters coming out of archers edge
Rafter_ad

[Dillershortbow]

I think some of you fella`s better look around at the age of the shooters.. If you chase away the present there will be no future. i can`t imagine anyone not liking and helping a kid. but on the other hand maybe there is a place for kids to shot other then on the top flites... i have shot with lots of kids most were a pleasure but there have been a few that need to be ------.. our archery comunity is small enough that we can`t aford to loose anyone young or old.

[Duggernaut]

Agreed that we need to keep the kids interest in the sport by getting them involved with veteran shooters but.......................I would hate to see the loss of the stiff competition amongst the elite shooters. Not saying that shooting with kids will decrease the competition level, but I think that we need to have a level of competitiveness that will bring people in. We need to build a framework for our future in order for the youth to carry it on.
Yah, having fun is the bottom line.
3D is pretty much golf, correct? Are chaperones required for each fouresome of kids in a major junior tournament?

What was so wrong with the way that it was before? I thought it worked well.

[Mikey]

If we turn them away we are no better than they are.



Maybe not better but more concerned about future of our sport!

I like to think this is a family sport.... If you don't like or want to shoot with kids.... take up golf!.....

LMao ... Allan ... I understand where you are coming from ... But I cant beleive you are so narrow minded ... I know you mean well. I know you enjoy the fun aspect . the Roots level aspect, the hunting Practice aspect of 3D ... and I totally respect that.

But there is a competive aspect of the sport as well ...Not so much here in Canada ... Yet ... but its coming .....

Take the Pro class for IBO or ASA down south ... do they shoot with their kids in the Triple crown tourneys or the Championships when thousands of bucks are on the line? I honestly cant anser that as I have never been to these tourneys, But I am willing to bet not so much.

If someone in Canada who feels that he is the next Micheal Braden and wants to pursue that avenue ... who are we to stop them? Ok you turn em away .... they tell their buddys that your an ass those buddys dont come ...and tell their buddys ...so on ... all of a sudden you are sacrificing the present to save the future .... Thats like building your herd of cattle by slautering all your calfs.

I think everyone should be given the option ... Like I said it wont be very often that someone would openly refuse to shoot with a young archer.

[dropzone]

I agree that we need stiff competition so let them shoot together and let the family orientated shooters stay together. I see allot of talk about this but I dont understand why there is turmoil here. If the elite want to shoot withe the elite let them. So what if they are to stuck up to spend time with a child to pass on why they are elite.

Competition is great and is great for adults to grow and learn, but remember that children are people too. I wish I was great at archery so I could pass it on to children.

Would it be a problem with asking individuals who they want to shoot with on all levels???

If there is a concern with kids shooting with their parents then the hosting club can send a chaperone.

Nit picking at all the small stuff will not solve the big stuff.

all I know is if my daughter wants to shoot with me we will shoot together. Organized or not..

enough said.

[acearchery]

This is totally my opinion.....

Mikey?

What makes a shooter elite?

I am narrow minded perhaps because the downfall of 3D in Alberta was the old Pro-class.... That is where the competition level was very strong, entry fees for pros were higher, prizes were higher.... and shoot attendance dropped because the "pros" brought in some changes to 3D that took away some of the fun and hunting aspects to create a competitive atmosphere...

Some changes were: Binoculars.... Set yardages for various equipment groups.... Huge equipment changes....Open class equipment used to be laughed off of the 3D course!....TRUE STORY!......

I have been over this but the day when people could no longer be competitive with their hunting bow.... killed the drive for people to attend.....

For example I was at the world Class archery event in Edmonton as my second shoot. I still shot fingers and did well... but because there were no equipment classess and everyone was flighted according to score and prize money was based only on score.... created drive to get all the gear..... or quit.....

I remember there being 400 shooters there.... where are they now..... Today we have more bowhunters and shoot attendance is lower!....

Douger.... 5-8% of the population have the major competitive drive!..... We are part of that small group..... and this ruling caters to that group...... at the expense of 95% of the sport participants.

We finally have this sport growing again because of the family focus.... i am just scared that we will kill that!..... with a bad ruling......

Why is target archery so poorly attended in Alberta.... Because parents and kids do not shoot together.... Now just so you don't think I am talking out of my hat..... I coach with a club where parents bring their kids to the junior night.... we coach and help them along.... but the parents do not shoot and watch their kids, read books, drop off and leave.....They do not shoot together and while the kids are excelling it is a very dry thing. and is only attended by "elite" shooters....

very dry compared to the shenanigans and fun of a 3D sghoot....

One cool memory I have is at the Williams lake shoot in 1992 seeing a 4 year old win camo face paint as a door prize and seeing him the next day in shorts..... painted up body out shooting and having an absolute blast...... Poor parents.... but he had FUN!.....

Seeing parents and kids shootig together is a fundamental of our sport for 92- 95% of our participants!...... 5-8% think differently because they want the level of competition... Fair enough....

I do see both sides.... but weighing the options I would rather see more people shooting together....

Perhaps I am biased.... I have 3 boys coming up...... and I will forgo competition to shoot WITH Them!.....

and if 3D shoots are not a family oriented atmosphere.... WE WILL NOT BE THERE!....

The cost to attend 5 3D shoots will pay for 10 3D animals!......

Besides:.... Mikey, Douger, and some of you who have a different shade of opinion!..... I have seen you with the kids..... You guys are awesome!...... how many people are still in 3D because you made it FUN!......

I am sure not in it to get my butt handed to me on a regular basis by Douger!..... and not for all the crispy's I have got from Mikey!.....

It is because while I am very competitive..... Y'all make it fun..... even our discussions!... like this one!......:D

I honestly want my kids to see you guys as role models and share this sport with them.... and share my children's success with you!......

As others have done for me!.......

Seeing youngsters get on a podium... get their medal and come back and say "Thank You Coach" Is a better feeling than I will ever have stepping on the podium myself!.....

Until we are shooting for thousands of dollars.......... We need to keep it fun and.....we will be shooting for thousands of dollars!......

How did curling/golf/bowling/bass fishing become a major sport with huge cash for the elite competitors....

BY MAKING IT A FUN SPORT TO DRAW THE WIDEST VARIETY OF PARTICIPANTS....... Creates advertising exposure!..... Archery companies are small potatoes... let's look at the beverage companies, car manufacturers, Drug companies, media conglomerates..... they could by and sell Mathews/Hoyt/etc with their advertising budget!......

Canadian Tire is a huge sponsor of minor hockey.......... everyone knows it!.....

I am not narrow minded just have made a decision looking at alternatives, strategic directions and based this decision on that!..... as well as what I feel and see for myself in future!....

Our participants want to shoot with their kids..... Let's listen to them!.....after all other sports WILL!

[Twisted Canuck]

Yes AC, but do you REALLLLY want Doug as a role model for your kids?? :lol:

[acearchery]

ABSOLUTELY!.... What a great guy!......

Along with Twisted Canuck, Dropzone, sniper, Travski, jackal, scooter, Canadian archer, wookie,..................and even Mikey!...............

Heck i think all of you guys would be great!.....:boohoo:

[rafter_ad]

i really dont see what the big deal is here. kids shootiung with dad or a beginer like me bugging ac archery all day with the i didnt know i had to touch the stake to i forgot to bring water to all the other dumb questions i asked. we also had a 6 year ols boy in the group who never caused a seconds woth of trouble or complained of the heat. i have seen that same 6 year old beat all the kids in a fun shoot the oldest being 13 and as the guy who helped him get started it is noi better feeling in the world just wish i had kids of my own to shoot with. was a sad day at archers edge when we lost one of the best young shooters when she moved back east. and as i say best i dont mean just as a shooter i mean as a person. adults could learn a lot from this talented unself little girl who one day will be a natainal champ if we do not take the fun out of it for i take my hat of to her dad for giving every thing he has in him to see her shoot. and i feel that this rule will kill the chance for her and a lot of young shooters. if we dont want these kids shooting with us where do you think they will be/ on the street in drugs cuasing trouble for parents. guys lets wake up and put the family back in the sport
Rafter_ad

[acearchery]

AMEN Rafter!....

[pinkarrow]

Children are the future of the sport and should be encouraged to participate at ALL levels. The enjoyment I get from watching a child shoot can not be measured against any medal or recognition I may get from my own shooting. I take my 5 year old grand-daughter to as many shoots as possible over the season, and it is still not enough for her.
At Innisfail last year she finished first in the peewee class and was jumping with joy, but on the way back to the camper she asked if she could stop at her little friends trailer for a minute. I was almost in tears when she shook her friends hand and congratulated her for being the top under 14 shooter. To me she showed true sports manship and this is what it is all about.
I do not know the ages of most of you here and do not know if you are old enough to remember when archery was a part of the school sports program. If you are you may remember that it was pushed as a "girls sport" and boys were discouraged from participating, I sure hope we are not sending the same message to our young that this is only something that adults can do seriously and that children are not welcome. I often wonder how many boys were turned off from archery because of the "girly" connotation and how many could have gone on to become world class participants.

[Dillershortbow]

this is getting way off topic is it not. i have not read a single comment from anyone includeing myself trying to get rid of kids shooting or the family thing.

[Mikey]

Allen ..Target archery in Alberta is poorly attended because the ATTA is a bunch of .... well lets just leave that to your imagination 9at least it was ...havent followed Alberta politics closely lately... getting my head around BC politics still)... Why is target archery in BC, Ontario, Manitoba so high attendance? The same rules apply in those provinces. So that point is null and void to me. In fact a Paper punchin shoot draws more than a 3D for the most part here in BC ... I personally cant quite wrap my head around that ...because I find Paper boring

Let me be the first to assure you (more so our audiance cause I think you know me better than that) that I am all for kids ...... But wanting to provide a differant point of veiw as i am open enough to see both sides of the fence.

Also another point that I wanna make ... you dont need open class equip to be top dog in this sport ... I know for a fact that the top dogs in this sport were top dogs before they got all the whizzy gear ... I have heard this from a few people that I have never known to BS me and that I consider some of my best friends.... its simple ..if you wanna pee in the tall grass you gotta put in the time, those individuals put in the time and to a point are naturally talented.

I understand the fear from a bad ruling but lets sit back and look here ...its only at nationals ....for the most part a regional shoot ...what was the western attendance at Nats in 2007? Eastern attendance in 2006? ...some Tokens ...but not very high in the grande scheme of things agreed?

It was stated some 4 pages ago that Nats shouldnt be turned into an Elitest shoot ... OK fair enuf.

I personally dont see the harm in giving the person a choice ...or at least the illusion of having a choice (because it might be unavoidable depending the number of shooters and how the scores fall down etc ....) it all depends on how the question on the registration form is worded.ie: If its a feasable option would you rather not be grouped with youth archers? yes or no ....or to that effect
if that guy that circles yes gets bumped from the first few flights because that was the only feasible option to have him not shoot with a young archer ... so be it he will still shoot against the first flight ...but he will shoot with the 4th flight. He might complain at the end of the day but ..archer X had his son with him ...yes man didnt wanna shoot with kids..he made his choice ... the feasible option was there... it was envoked ...might make him think again next time round and teach yes man a life lesson about youth of this world.

Win win for everyone in my eyes But those are behind some quite often dirty glasses

[acearchery]

If that guy that circles yes gets bumped from the first few flights because that was the only feasible option to have him not shoot with a young archer ... so be it he will still shoot against the first flight ...but he will shoot with the 4th flight. He might complain at the end of the day but ..archer X had his son with him ...yes man didnt wanna shoot with kids..he made his choice ... the feasible option was there... it was envoked ...might make him think again next time round and teach yes man a life lesson about youth of this world



Mikey.................What The HECK you actually made a good point through my thick skull!.... This would be a win win..... The kids are not excluded..... and they won't have to shoot with someone that does not want them there!...... and.... folks with kids are a priority and promote the family sport!.....

[Canadian Archer]

archery is a good Family sport it is nice to shoot with your parents and the people you look up to if kids can't shoot with adults they might loose intrest and the chance to shoot with thier hero. this better not turn into a sport like golf (yikes that is a scary thought :eek: ) we all enjoy the sport right? after all what does archery stand for?
All round fun
Radical
Comrads
Every one can shoot
Red necks to city folk
You go up and shoot and have fun

every one deserves to shoot with thier family, friends and heros.
come on lighten up wouldn't you feel misserable if a kid looked up to you and you blew them away like they were nothing (I know I would) we look up to you all and respect you and hope to be like our heros and have the privilage to shoot with them to!

[ronburrell]

I would not like someone else to away the pleasure of shooting with my kids. These are memories that last a lifetime.It figures that it would come from Quebec. the ******* of the month club has another winner.

[jhooey]

I have read and appreciated all of your comments. As FCA 3DVP, it is my responsibility to pay attention to the views of the membership and in my case 3D archers in particular.

We are all competitive archers (no matter our age). Kids want to beat their parents. Archers compete against each other. Others compete against themselves. I think the issue is to keep the FUN part of competition in the sport to benefit everyone. Some people have fun shooting with kids, others don't. Some people have fun shooting against their opposition, some don't. The solution will take time to implement and refine.

In order for a motion such as the one passed at the 3D meeting to become a rule, a process must be followed. The rule must be drafted and sent to the 3D reps of each province for approval. If the Reps approve, the rule must go to the FCA Board of Directors for ratification. If 2 written objections are received by the Board, they must discuss the rule and decide whether or not it will be accepted.

The new rule book is scheduled to be printed in March. Therefore, this issue needs to addressed by then.

There is no rule in the target/field sections saying that kids must have non-shooting chaperones. It is only in the hosting manual. That is why registration forms ask for the chaperone's name. Since it is not an FCA rule for other disciplines, I don't believe it should be for 3D either.

My suggestion is that:
1. the motion be rescinded for a year
2. the registration forms for the next two 3D Nationals have a place to indicate whether or not the archer is prepared to shoot in a parent/child group
3. the hosting committee group the archers who would rather not shoot with Cubs/Pre-cubs in separate groups from those who will shoot with Cubs/Pre-cubs
4. no more than one Cub/Pre-cub may accompany a parent/guardian
5. no more than two Cubs/Pre-cubs be in any one group
6. Cubs be permitted to shoot with their peers if they so choose


What do you think of this interim solution?

Jude Hooey
FCA 3DVP

[obwon]

I don't agree with this decision. When my boys were attending tournaments with me, I had no one to go with them, they always went with me. I also know that they would not have gone to the tournaments, if they could not be with me. We need to keep the kids interested in going to the shoots & have fun & I believe we would lose some or most kids attendance due to this.

[jhooey]

Please explain why they wouldn't come. How old are they? How many are there? Why would we lose the kids? This is a way to have kids shoot with parents.

[obwon]

Jude, my reply was to the change in the rules, if the kids could not go with the parent shooting, not your suggestion(s).

My boys would want to shoot with me, & not being able too, they would not want to go, they would stay home. This would have them not wanting to shoot anymore. I also know other kids that feel the same way.

sorry for the confusion.

[acearchery]

Jude here is what I think!....

My suggestion is that:
1. the motion be rescinded FOREVER
2. the registration forms for the next two 3D Nationals have a place to indicate whether or not the archer is prepared to shoot in a parent/child group
3. the hosting committee group the archers who would rather not shoot with Cubs/Pre-cubs in separate groups from those who will shoot with Cubs/Pre-cubs
4. no more than one Cub/Pre-cub may accompany a parent/guardian NOPE!...
I have three boys.... We all will shoot together

5. no more than two Cubs/Pre-cubs be in any one group NOPE See Above!...


6. Cubs be permitted to shoot with their peers if they so choose.... If competent and in Cub or better class!...

Honestly we will kill attendance..... If my boys are of an age to be in archery we will be doing it together

The NAtionals should be a reflection of our sport as per any other sanctioned shoot.... do the rules of curling or hock change in the playoffs!? Archery to me is a family sport!....

[russ]

One issue that's not been touched on. If the young archers are shooting with non-shooting chaperones, who is doing the mentoring?

[Dillershortbow]

So AC you want to shoot with your three boys thats great for you . that makes four shooters allready thats a group . add another three guys your flited with is seven .maybe someone how has flown a 1000 miles to come to a national shoot dosn`t want to subject himself to that.

[Mikey]

Merv makes a valid point .... at a local shoot that fine in my opinion ... But once again Nationals is a championship shoot and should be conducted as such ...

Allan I realize that you and mama are a baby factory ... and I know you well enough to know that you life revolves around those kids .... If it comes down to it I know that you wont compete or shoot NC in Nats if it means you and yer boys can shoot together.

Now that all said I know that at nationals ...not everyone on site is shooting ... wifes husbands older kids friends etc....... Most realize that this is a family sport ... I dont believe that finding a volunteer to take kids arounds would be all that difficult ....I know that most every national event that I go to my wife will be there ... and she loves taking the kids around ... there is alot more out there like her ... After shooting in Lethbridge she piled a bunch of kids into my hutterite egg getter and took em up to my trailer where my pool was set up and let the kids play in the pool in 40 degree heat
As much as Sam is one of a kind ... theres alot more out there like her .... and frankly its a way to enhance the comradery and family aspect of the shoot

[acearchery]

Diller... you do make a good point...... Common courtesy would have to prevail... That being said the kids would have to behave appropriattely!. Momma plans on shooting too!.... One or two could go with her......

group size of 5 is very common..... I always like my group to be busted.....

If I have to shoot NC at Nats.... then fair enough.... but then why would I go to Nats..... except to give the kids a chance.....which I am willing to do!.......

How about me flying with 3 kids and momma across country to attend? Am I worth less than some whiner?

I am beginning to dislike the flavour of this sport....

[jhooey]

This is not about who deserves what. It is about trying to make the Nationals an experience that all archers can enjoy. I believe that it is reasonable to expect that, at a National Championship, there are no more than 2 PC/C in a group.

If #4 is taken out, a parent could take up to 2 kids. I think that this issue is becoming convoluted. In the past three years at Indoor Nationals. there have been between 20 & 24 PC/C. At Outdoor Nationals, there have been between 8 & 19. This is not an issue that involves a huge number of archers.

At an Indoor Championship, the problem of the time it takes to score the targets is the real issue. The archers will have to go to more targets in the same amount of time. If the group is efficient in scoring, I don't think it should be a huge problem.

I believe the time for teaching/coaching juniors is at local shoots. At Nationals, a parent/guardian/coach should not be setting sights or discussing distances before a shot is taken. In fact, discussing distances is against the rules. It is in the best interest of the child and parent to follow the rules.

[acearchery]

I agree Jude!...with everything!....

I would like to add one more.... local shoots are for teaching the game as per rules: no yardage discussion, no setting sights. Coaching is limited to encouragement and reinforcing things... but not too much..... it needs to be fair!.....

The time for discussing yards, and setting sights is when practicing!.....

Another item is why are there so few children at Nationals..... By encouraging kids to come, have fun and shoot as a family......... within the reasonable limits set out in Jude's post I believe we could increase the children's participation!....

[Vinyari]

well I'm sure I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot with this comment but....

isn't it best to have the parents and kids shoot together at practice, that's why we practice right?

when it comes to competition the kids as well as the adults should shoot with there own competitors, I don't mean this as anything for or against parents or kids as I have 3 kids of my own but personally I think if my kids want to shoot competition then they should shoot with their own competitors.

[russ]

Vin, I had a discussion with someone else that thought the same way. He had a few points I hadn't thought of. His biggest point was, that archers should be shooting within a group of their own peers at Nationals.

My question is, what is the rest of the world doing?

[acearchery]

I would not feel comfortable with having my under 12 year old (pre-cub) not shooting with me or my wife!.... Would You?

What does it matter what happens in rest of world? Do we jump off of the same bridge?

Cubs should have options!..... Cadets and juniors.... shoot with peers!....

[russ]

Couldn't tell you AC, but I do know that some parents tend to be over protective. My wife for one.

[Travski]

Couldn't tell you AC, but I do know that some parents tend to be over protective. My wife for one.


Yes she is I have to ask her two or three times if Russ can come play :flipoff:


Trav

[ganonymous]

wow all this talk about kids and families....geez willackers I guess I made a boo boo by taking my kids target practicing.......here I thought it was ok to get rid of them that way.......now i find out archery is a family sport so now maybe i will need to find a girl to get prego so i can have more kids so i can fit in.......damned it only if i did not use my kids for targets eh.... :tongue:

[kidder17]

Jude-
At National events I say give people a choice. Personally I do not have kids. I took up archery 3 years ago because I went to a 3D shoot and loved it, and now I would have to say that yes- I do like the competitive part of it. Please do not crucify me for saying that. I have no problem shooting with kids, but IMO a Canadian national event should have a competitive atmosphere. My good friend Quinton Matzner took up the sport a little over a year ago and is involved for the same reason and is hooked just the same.
We both grew up playing competative fastball, we participated at a national level every year from 13 yrs old until about 4 yrs ago(we're both 32 now) , and for Quinton beyond that competing in World Championships, Pan-am Games, etc. We both shoot for the same reason- to try and win and improve ourselves and a National event is the place to perform your personal best.
My whole point is that at a national level you should be competing against(with) like peers, it adds to the competition, and IMO that competition brings out the best in anyone which is what National events are meant for.

Archery is a game, while some see it as a individual sport, from the 3D point of view I see it as sort of a team event(even though you are competing against each other) you feed off of the other three shooters in your group, you use their shots for reference, etc. If not all archers are shooting the same target in a group I feel it can put a person at a disadvantage of say a group that is of all the same class shooting the same target.

Just my 2cents. I mean to offend no one with my opinion, its just that- an opinion

Warren :cheers:

[Mikey]

Thank you for your Opinion Warren its just as Valuble as anyone elses.

and you didnt offend anyone

[ronburrell]

well said, very well said.

[willyqbc]

Kidder I understand what you are saying but for you and all the others who wish to preserve the "level of competition" at the nationals, I think we need to consider how much a rule like this will hurt the level of competition. Lets take my case for example, I have two kids (one who shoots). My wife is the current ladies open champion and if this rule remained in effect we would most likely stop going to these events while the kids are still young. I have to wonder how many of the top shooters in this country are parents who would feel the same way about this as we do?? The nationals should be a competition of the best archers in the country.....not the best archers in the country who don't have kids.

What you say about people in a group feeding off each other, reading each others arrows etc. is definately true and those who chose to shoot with kids definately are at a bit of a disadvantage. Also having kids shoot with parents will definately effect the flighting and sometimes you end up with a person being bumped down a 1 group to accomodate a kid and maybe you won't end up with perfect flighting for the top end shooters. However, this is a price we need to pay to help insure the future of this sport.


just my opinion
Chris

[jhooey]

The comments you have all made are valid and valued. I have a teleconference today with the rest of the FCA Executive Committee. I will discuss this with them. I have also put forward the proposal to the 3D reps in the provinces and have, as yet, only received one response (BC). We will discuss this issue and I will keep you posted on developments.

I believe that the Nationals should be competitive. But....As a coach, I think that 9 - 12 year olds are in a developmental stage and the pressure of National competition added to not being with a parent would be too much. These years are years where we can phase them in to the "competitive" aspect of our sport.

Jude Hooey
FCA 3DVP

[Snipe Show]

I am 17 years old. When I was 10-12 I was shooting recurve in national competitions...I had more fun and felt less pressure when my parents or a guardian werent there! I didn't feel the need to have to impress them as much so I could focus on my shooting! :wink:

[ganonymous]

hehehehe........the impact of robbing innocence from the developmental stages.......I not sure about all of you but truly the politics here in this thread are discouraging ...especially for someone who just likes to shoot at attend a competion just to do that......there seems to be internal strife amongst those who get involved with politics and that is in all areas of society....always a great opportunity for me to question what cognitive inhibitions are motivating these individuals that lead them into a social dynamic that does nothing more than separate and has hierarchical affects.....

archery is beautiful........is it not?
So how to hold an event for that goal and the simplicity of the sport, art or way of life.......what is the objective....who is being targetted for the shoots or types of events?
if you identify the general characteristics of those being serviced or served...because reall that is all these committees are ...services........

I deal with BS like this all the time in the social service field....last thing I want to see is a power struggle or clash within something so beautiful as archery......no wonder people stay away from clubs..... POLITICS SUCK!!

So my last note: who are you serving?
maybe if you figure that out through a mandate everything else is solved.....is it archers or elitists?

[acearchery]

Some great comments here!... with a variety of views!...

Believe it or not i do see the good aspects in all of them what do we do for the majority?


if this rule remained in effect we would most likely stop going to these events while the kids are still young. I have to wonder how many of the top shooters in this country are parents who would feel the same way about this as we do??



While I am not a top shooter..... I feel the same way......

Maybe the current absences at shoots is not speaking loud enough! I have introduced quite a few people to 3D who have been turned off by the "competitive" aspect and have not returned.... yet we enjoy going out to the local club in an evening or a weekend!.....

[jhooey]

I agree...Politics suck! However, they are a reality. We could just sit back and ignore what is being said. OR We can pay attention and try to find a compromise.

All organizations have procedures that have to be followed. If they aren't followed, it would be a "disorganization" not an organization. It may be considered BS to some, but it is necessary.

Who are we "servicing"? We are there for all Canadian archers - competitive or non-competitive, young and old, male and female, ..... Will we try to please them all? Absolutely. Can we please them all? Probably not. I wish we could, but (as my mother always said) "If wishes were ponies, then beggars would ride." :D

[ganonymous]

so why not approach with the inclusivity (if thats a word) that is going for. I went to a couple shoots and I tell you all the hoopla about this group or this group sanctions this or that shoot....then I come on this site for quality of knowledge here...your right politics exist everywhere that is a human ailment but perpetuating that is stinky.....ya i said stinky lol........

:boohoo:

but this is where i best tread lightly as the sociological objectivity wants to illuminate and enlighten several of you on human nature and how if you let in run rampant without principled living it will cause social decay....and I would just hate to smell that stink here to hahahaha....but truth beknownst I am not a long term guy so maybe i got no right spouting here....I love archery and I love simplicity.....

[scooter]

so why not approach with the inclusivity (if thats a word) that is going for. I went to a couple shoots and I tell you all the hoopla about this group or this group sanctions this or that shoot....then I come on this site for quality of knowledge here...your right politics exist everywhere that is a human ailment but perpetuating that is stinky.....ya i said stinky lol........

:boohoo:

but this is where i best tread lightly as the sociological objectivity wants to illuminate and enlighten several of you on human nature and how if you let in run rampant without principled living it will cause social decay....and I would just hate to smell that stink here to hahahaha....but truth beknownst I am not a long term guy so maybe i got no right spouting here....I love archery and I love simplicity.....
So, has anything happened with this?

[jhooey]

The FCA Rules Committee is working on the rules right now. We have been having discussions for the past three weeks. I can't seem to get repsonses from some of the 3D reps from the provinces to get a feel for what they want to see in the rule.

The feed back on this forum appears to support the inclusion of Cubs and Precubs with parents. However, there are concerns that, because this is a National Championship, the kids should shoot with their peers and be chaperoned by non-shooters.

I am not sure what a compromise would be.

[Mikey]

Jude ... It will be impoosible to please everyone .... after some thought here is my idea ... for registration ... put a box on the form to check if one wants to shoot without kids in group for the first three rounds .... on the 3rd day fourth (flighted) round the chips will fall where they do ... if your flighted with a kid ...tough ... with respect however to #s in flight max of say 5 total shooters and 2 kids in flight ... for example ... if a parent out shoots me by 1 x (numbers otherwise tied) and he is 3rd in flight then I will shoot with the kid to make 5 in that flight .... if that parent has 2 kids then I would get bumped to #1 position in the next flight .... does that make some sort of sense ... I hope so cause i am working nite shift and didnt sleep at all today .....

[ganonymous]

i see progress in this thread now...yay!!!!!!!

[petew]

A problem with the little ones is responsibility.
Who is going to be accountable for a child that is not your own?
And when the tots need to "GO" is a chaperone / stranger going to be able to be of assistance like a parent is ? A parent will stop shooting to look after business, be it cold, wet, or needing to "go" a chaperone will not.

Childern belong with the parents who are accountable for their actions.

We hear of incidents in every other sport where childern are abused by "coaches etc" . Lets prevent this from ever being able to happen in our sport.

Our grand daughter comes with us to shoots and there is not a chance she would ever be able to go if she was not supervised by us. If we took her to Nationals we would give up our shooting rather than turn her over to a non-family member.

If there is a concern for scoring ,then make it so the parent/guardian can not score for the kids.

[scooter]

A problem with the little ones is responsibility.
Who is going to be accountable for a child that is not your own?
And when the tots need to "GO" is a chaperone / stranger going to be able to be of assistance like a parent is ? A parent will stop shooting to look after business, be it cold, wet, or needing to "go" a chaperone will not.

Childern belong with the parents who are accountable for their actions.

We hear of incidents in every other sport where childern are abused by "coaches etc" . Lets prevent this from ever being able to happen in our sport.

Our grand daughter comes with us to shoots and there is not a chance she would ever be able to go if she was not supervised by us. If we took her to Nationals we would give up our shooting rather than turn her over to a non-family member.

If there is a concern for scoring ,then make it so the parent/guardian can not score for the kids.

Bravo Pete. I agree with you 100%.

[bigbulljoe]

WOW. To say that this is a BAD idea is the understatement of they year !!

While some people have put forth some good ideas and opinions there is no way getting around the fact that if this rule remains IT IS GOING TO HURT PARTICIPATION.

My son has shot with me in a group at the Nationals in 2004, 2005, and 2006. He has done very well at the Nationals and now knows the rules and protocol and expected behaviour as well or better than most adults on the course. He has been a part of the final day top 4 flighting in my division on a number of occasions and there has never been an issue. In fact he and I have heard nothing but positive comments from our fellow shooters.

My wife shoots and so does my daughter so there aren't any non-shooting family members to chaperone them!! Who could I drag to Prince George or St. John or Lethbridge or even Barrie to chaperone my children?? Where would I put them in my vehicle? (4 bows and gear, clothes and 4 shooters)

It makes far more sense to have one youth in a group of 3 or 4 competitive adult shooters than it does to have one competitive adult shooter in a group of 3 or 4 youth shooters. Why? Where are they supposed to learn the rules and course etiquette and protocol from? Non-shooting chaperones? No offence but alot of shooters are unclear on the rules and etiquette let alone non shooters.

This year in Barrie my son was put in a group of his peers and we were told they would have a chaperone provided. He shot very well in the 1st round but then had an equipment failure in the 2nd round, he didn't notice right away (but I'm sure a shooting chaperone would have) and when he did notice he called for an equipment failure as he should have. The problem is that nobody took him seriously - I mean he's just a kid what does he know about archery and his equipment?- he didn't know what was wrong but he knew something was wrong there was no chaperone for his group and when somebody finally looked at his bow they told him it didn't look like there was anything wrong and he was pressured to continue shooting. The short story is he lost over 100 points in the 2nd round (compared to his 1st and 3rd rounds) because the serving on the string for his drop-away rest had slipped and his rest wasn't working properly. I can tell you for a fact that if he had been shooting with my wife or I or any experienced shooter it would have been noticed and addressed PROPERLY.

The other part of this is that I had a parent tell my wife and I that my son had really been great in teaching the other kids in the group all about the rules and course etiquette as they didn't know any of "that stuff". Thats great and I am proud of my son but what if he wasn't in that group? Who is going to ensure that the kids/non-shooting chaperones know how to score arrows and when to pull them etc, etc.. Where are they to learn these things? I can assure you that the reason my son knows all those rules is because he has shot in groups with adults - shooting adults for years and some of those groupings have been very competitive.

This isn't about whether or not kids are going to be comfortable shooting without their parents, its about what is BEST for our sport and its future. The FCA needs to re-read their mission statement.

This will defintely hurt participation at Nationals especially in the youth divisions.

Joe

[dropzone]

Petew,

Very well said.:notworthy

[Arrows]

The reason I stayed shooting until my kids got old enough ,Was so I could be at the same competition and have my kid go around the same course and shoot at the same time.
I shot the Ataa3d provincials this year with my daughter and I could not have been more proud. I see no problem with this as long as there is another person in the group.
As a coach I try to get people involved in our sport and this was a good selling point ,
It creates a good bond between us, No other sport that I can think of is like this.
Not being able to shoot competive with my kids just would,nt cut it. F.C.A. have a re think.
Thanks Arrows.

[acearchery]

Pete!.... can you believe this!.....

I agree with you 1000%

One other consideration that I will add to Pete's concerns... as a coach for many disciplines, and a first aid instructor... is every chaperone going to have a background check for supervising people in the "vulnerable" sector!.....

Good post BBJ

[jhooey]

The FCA Rules Committee agreed to put off the decision to require chaperones for 3D Nationals until after it is discussed at the next meeting in August in Dauphin. Please let your Provincial Rep know your feelings in this matter.

At the 2008 Nationals, Precubs & Cubs will be able to shoot with their parents. We will ask that no more than one child be assigned to a group.

Jude Hooey
FCA 3D VP

[petew]

Keep at it Jude, You are doing a good job for all of us.

Pete

[dropzone]

Great job jhooey, That makes my daughter happy. Now we just got to make it to the nationals.

[jhooey]

At the Indoor Nationals, we would like to move the line for the 30 yd shooters. In order to do this, we would group the kids with their peers but have parents not shooting at the same time. That way the parents can accompany their kids. It will take superior organizationals skills, but I think we can do it.

What do you think of this plan?

Jude

[acearchery]

It seemed to work in past....

and is a great idea... parents get to see their kids shoot, and kids get to shoot with their friends....

[efford1]

sorry to pick this up at such a late date ,seems that a few, very few competitive shooters have forgotten what it was like to be young.they are having concentration issues at the stake cause they can't /don't want to miss what is talked about by their competition.to make this easier for themselves they are trying to keep the younguns with someone else. guess thry haven't heard someone else has something else to do, like look after thier own younguns.it all boils down to the squeeky wheel, make some LOUD NOISE to your provincial rep, he/she better giter done at the next meeting. sendem emails to the negatory , results should be overwhelming. there are more peaple who are members who have younguns than members who don't. love to shoot with yonguns, they teach me how to concentrate better as i learn how to tune out the background chatter to focus on my targets.just my $.02:loser::flipoff:

[oldtimer]

Well being the father to WillyQ , father in law to Sam and poppa Mike to michael and alex our family always is in one group or another with kids. Should mention that my wife shoots as well. I have seen Samantha post the same scores with or without kids. Likewise Chris. If Chris or Sam are wanting to shoot in the #1 flight where they usually end up then Poppa Mike and Gramma Barb will Take Michael and Alex, The only problem with that is Michael seems to be first or second in his category so will the other kids be upset having grandparents in their group? Over the years I have shot with a lot of kids and MOST of them are better than some of the so called adults we sometimes get stuck with.
My 2 cents.... Mike

[efford1]

i just had a breif conversation with al wills, the bc fca rep. apparently the memo is working, we need to voice our opinions to them so they havea record of members and wich way they think this decision should go. please find out who your provincial rep is and email/snail mail a responce to the ruling.ed.let qc and mb look like little ones.:boohoo: