Junior program/Traditional

[petew]

Do any clubs offer a junior program where the kids learn to shoot Traditional bows , no sights or rests. Just recurves and longbows shooting off the shelf.

[acearchery]

Pete....

Our junior program caters to all archers.....

However I will mention one funny story.... In our junior program we had a young person who wanted to shoot Olympic freestyle and had removed sight and stabilizer to paractice... A well meaning traditionalist not involved with the program started helping this youngster with form.... taught her to cant the bow slightly..... anchor at the corner of mouth.... and when I looked over this youngster looked at me all confused... I thanked the gentleman and casually put sights and stab back on the bow.... He had a good sense of humour and laughed and apologised to me and the young lady.... I called it Dark Side Evangelism......

Absolutely Pete... by all means... I cater to the stick and string afficionados.... easiest thing to coach.... Hook up arrow, Pull back bow... shoot that direction..... and get used to missing!....

Seriously... I coach all types at a beginner level but when a person gets beyond my knowlege then I refer them to another coach.... for the dark side..... That would be you...

Also with junior program starting January 12/13 2007 in Spruce Grove... anybody is welcome to come out an play....

Another thing I would like to do is have successful archers come in and demonstrate their facet of archery and provide additional information ......

Pete... Ialways encourage people to start off with a recurve.... no sights.... flipper rest can shoot with vanes (durability) until the archer wants to shoot/buy something different.

My son is starting off of the shelf.....with a longbow...... My second son.... well let's just say Santa might be an archer..... Time for him to start as well.... after all he has not shot a bow for 2 years.....

[petew]

There are some young ones that are into our side of the game, but we just don't see it offered to them very much. It seems the programs automaticly think every kid is bound to go the Olympic or high tec way. This is good to see that SG is offering encouragement for them to try all types.

A benefit for the parents if the kids programs also encourages traditional is in costs.
It is far cheaper to outfit a youngster with good a trad setup. I know your club has Recurves that are well suited to be striped to a flipper for starting out . For the same price of a rest and sight they can have a good youth Recurve or longbow for the kids and no other expenses but arrows and a Tab or glove.

Remember Zac sporting his mohawk ,whacking those hanging teddy bears with his recurve.. LOL Now he was just having to much fun, and fun is what it is all about no matter what bow you shoot.


By the way I picked up the Montana Whip you liked this wekend,so it will be available for the dart's in January . Just watch out for the bright light when you leave the dark side on Fridays. LOL

Pete

[ganonymous]

I am confused............Pete you say That I am on the dark side and AC you say that pete is on the dark side.............who is the anti-light? or is the true light side a .45 acp?

[acearchery]

Depends what side you are on..... See I am on the light side and Pete is on the dark.... side ....

Pete I am looking forward to the Trad league when does it start and I am sure GA will be there?.... Love that Montana Bow....

ANd Yes that Kid could sure shoot... and was smiling or laughing the whole time....

[petew]

Starts Jan 07 /07 , The details are on the ATBA website. at http://albertatraditionalbowhunters.com/


The 2007 Alberta Traditional Bowhunters Association Dart League will soon be on it's way. We are looking at first round at 5:30 January 5, 2007 for the first night. Second round could start as early as 7:00. We had a great turn out last year and are hoping for the same this year. Branko Androic will be running the Dart League this year.
Same format as in the past. So, plan for 10 weeks of fun and fellowship. The league is open to members ($6.00) and non members ($7.50), so spread the word. For more info contact Branko Androic or Cal Briggs.
Last year was a blast, you won't want to miss it this year. Meet old friends, make some new ones, have some laughs and share some stories.


Please see the map below to help find your way to "Trophy Book Archery Lanes"



You will NOT have to be an Alberta Traditional Bowhunters Association member to shoot the Dart League. Just to let you know, we will be asking traditional shooters to support the A.T.B.A. by becoming members.

[willyqbc]

Like ACArcher our program caters to all types of equipment. Most of the club bows are recurves with a rest and no sight. Our JOP program here has the great luck to have a Barebow national champion as one of our coaches. Currently one of our young boys holds the national record for BB, and one of our young girls just shot over the national record in an unsanctioned event so it won't count...but she will get it. Its just amazing what having a coach around that is very skilled at his discipline can do for these young folks.

Chris

[GCA]

We have started a junior program in Grande Prairie and I try to have the kids shoot recurves with only a flipper rest (mostly because the bows we have can not shoot off the shelf). I agree that it is the easiest way to introduce youngsters to archery. The problem is twofold
1) most archers here are hunters and therefore tend to want to overbow the young archers, even ones who should know better! The thinking SEEMS to be Hunting comes before Archery. I hope I am wrong but I have seen many examples of young people being pushed to shoot a 45 lb compound so that they can go hunting but they have a hard time pulling the bow let alone hitting a target.

2) there are very few Traditional archers here and they are not involved with the club (for some reason), therefore there is a belief that the ONLY bows to shoot are compounds. This includes well intentioned volunteers who are helping with the junior program.

[acearchery]

Yes I have observed the same things....

However I have also observed the youngster Pete referred to and his parents are avid archers and they allow this young fellow the freedom to enjoy archery as he wants to....

We need to appreciatte parents like this.....

I can understand parents wanting their children to be able to hunt with a bow and the 40lb minimum is the standard..... The kids push themselves so that they can go hunting with their parents.....

"An authorized bow is one that is held, drawn and released by muscular power and has a draw weight of not less than 18 kg (40 lb.). This is the number of kilograms (pounds) required to draw an arrow of 71 cm (28 in.) to its head. "

POINT TO NOTE....Thanks Pete...... A kid with a 26" draw and 30lb compound bow should just shoot a 28" arrow---- if officer actually has a bow scale and the draw it to 26" and it hits the draw stop just tell him to draw arrow to head I guarantee you he will hit 40 lbs then..... The law in this case would be hard to enforce with the wording about....."drawing it to the head".... HMMMM!..... understanding is everything....

Compounds are the bow of choice for most hunters and only backwards, hairy, knuckle dragging Neandertals want to shoot anything else..... :o or is it VICE VERSA....?

Information and understanding of the roots of archery helps all archers.... The same basics of form exist for all facets of archery.... consistency.... in stance.... bowhandposition.... release.....

I always encourage archers to start with fingers as a good release isfelt and so is a bad release.... these principles transfer and carry over to a release.

****** Rant Warning********
I am always disgusted at the mentality of the "bow salespeople" I will explain a bit... they are archery equipment providers and "Bow salespeople" The provider takes the time to learn what the prospective archer wants and needs and assists them with making their decision. The bow salesperson takes the prospective archer asks what they want to spend... slams a bow in their hand a release and armguard on their wrist... minimum instruction and let them shoot a few arrows and blow sunshine up their hoop and they walk out with a bow and lighter by the cash they wanted to spend + 25%....

Since many folks in our area have been subjected to this they do not know anything different so they expect the same for their youngsters.....
****** Rant Done******
Anyways back to the topic..... As we are all potential ambassadors for archery when a new archer approaches the sport take the time to find out what a person would like and introduce them to peple who shoot that equipment so they can learn firsthand.... however this does not lead to an instant sale.....

This is where we as archery club coaches need to ensure we present people with all options for enjoying archery.... Trust me if you want to learn about Instinctive recurve or longbow archery... I send them to Pete.... I like to be a generalist.... but I am a generalist on the basic level... I have never attended a shoot with just a stick and string in hand.......Yet!......

Pete I promise if you have that Montana available this summer... One shoot...... but you have to return the favour and come to the light side at one shoot... I can even lend you a real bow!

******* RANTING AGAIN******** GEEZ AL*****
OK one last peeve about the "bow salespeople" --- The ones I am referring too shoot and like to pretend they know what they are talking about.... most of their illustrations.... they have learned from..... coaches who use their lanes for the junior program..... Yet do not respect or recognise their knowlege or even attend shoots.....
****************Whew I think I'm Done***********************

I feel that as a coach I need to take a lesson from the parents I mentioned earlier and other archers who have provided an opportunity to learn about other facets of the sport and learn a little about every facet to be able to introduce the various opportunities but know when to realise when and arcehr is approaching the level where I cannot mentor them any more and refer them to another mentor.......

I have taken the time to learn about many styles of archery and this may be hindrance sometimes when I am specialising in one particular aspect..... But it increases my enjoyment and thus my longevity in the sport....

Archery is about the archer not the bow!.....

[willyqbc]

Al... not sure I quite understand the top part of your last post....do you think its okay for these kids to push themselves to be able to get to 40 lbs so they can hunt? I certainly hope not....overbowing is a good way to end an archery carreer for good. As long as the youngster is still growing, overbowing can cause serious damage to the bones and joints. To say nothing of making it very tough to teach good form. If I have misunderstood your post then I apologize in advance.

Chris

[petew]

"An authorized bow is one that is held, drawn and released by muscular power and has a draw weight of not less than 18 kg (40 lb.). This is the number of kilograms (pounds) required to draw an arrow of 71 cm (28 in.) to its head. "


No where does it say how far you need to pull it !!
It does say a minimum arrow length of 25"in the regs. To sum up the regs here they are meaningless and useless when it comes to defining a bow for hunting.

[acearchery]

Thanks Wqbc......

I certainly want to clarify if my ranting got in the way of the message......

OVERBOWING IS BAD........

Many kids in our program show up overbowed....When drawing their bow.....They look like a dog pooping a cantelope.... so I simply crank them down... If the kid complains I say this is a temporary measure to see if it will help your grouping.... Surprise.... Surprise..... it does.....

If parents complain I explain that my first priorityas a coach is to ensure that the participants are not injured.... After a few rounds the child is shooting better.... of course I may have to adjust sights.... and point is taken.... I also explain that what is better shooting 10x and then be unable to shoot properly or 45 times where consistency can be learned.....

As per Pete's Post.....My point was that many people have this idea thyat the bow has to reach a peak weight of 40 lbs prior to full draw and the wording in the Alberta regs does not state that!......... It does state a 28" arrow has to be drawn to its head.... what this actually referred to when one looks in the archives of developoing bowhunting regulations..

The law is based in antiquity prior to compounds that said a hunting bow had to be 40lbs at 28 inches whether or not the archer could draw the full 28 inches..... Thus the previous posts about changing this rule.... complicated to say the least....

Another problem in Alberta is kids at 12 are allowed to bowhunt.... but must wait to 14 to rifle hunt..... I have not verified this but is common understunding... please clarify if I am wrong......

Parental Pressure.... Is often passive..... quite often the kids put pressure on themselves to meet percieved expectations....... I have seen this already with my 3 year old who wants a compound bow to be like daddy...... Do I want him to shoot compound yet?.... No!... That is why he has a longbow....but he puts expectations in himself to be like me.....Poor Fella......!.... What is the cure.... He needs to see Daddy shoot longbow.. .....Right Pete..... :lol:

[petew]

AC:
Considering the pressure the little one is feeling, and the terrible strain it is putting on you , there is only one economical solution that will look after Both of you.
Daddy needs to get a trad bow.!!

He can start with a glove and arrows anyway.
LOL


http://git-r-donearchery.com/clearance.htm check out the kids bows.!!

[acearchery]

Yes Pete.....

You lend me bow and arrows and we shoot round of 3D and I return...... Just the bow..... Ground ate all the arrows.......

First set of trad arrows..... all will be fu flu's however you say it .... ugly as sin arrows with 6" big honking feathers.........

Since I will be shooting some trad this year I can guarantee the trad pegs at Parkland will be less than 20 yards...... LOL......

Seriously though ..... I will have to hook up with the fellow that makes those Montana bows and get him to make me a twin for this spring.......Love that stick..........

[petew]

It is a real sweet bow. The 62" length and 45# make it real sweet to shoot all day. Wait till you try the Cari-bow Peregrine I just reviewed!!! Another awesome longbow.
Give me a call.

[willyqbc]

Pete...you got any ballpark prices on those bows? Also are they both sticks or is the Montana a recurve?

Chris

[petew]

These are D/R longbows. Both bowyers also make recurves. You can find all the information in the reviews on my site in the trad review section at www.peteward.com

They sell for around $700 depending on options.

Pete

[Gary]

I think it is great that you folks are talking about getting the young ones involved. I would hope that ethics and the right way to do things will be part of any information provided to them....which brings me to my next point.
While the regs may be poorly written with respect to the 40#-28 inch stipulation, the intention is valid. Someone deemed that 40# is required to provide enough casting energy to harvest big game. Having some experience with that theory, I wish it were much higher. I hope no one is implying that it is ok to send a young one into the woods to hunt with a 40# bow and a 25 or 28 inch arrow that cannot be pulled, held at that weight and then released by that young person with sufficient accuracy and energy to kill the animal being shot at. A miss is the same as a wound and a wound, although part of hunting, is something that everyone must do everything possible to avoid.

My thoughts.

[petew]

Gary:
It is so poorly thought out that it is a mockery.
How many 12 year olds can shoot 40#. Trad or compound. Very few if any.
Then the type of bow is not considered. A 40# Hickory longbow is a far cry from a 40# Adcock,Peregrine or Kempf which are far cry from a 40# compound.
Limiting the young ones to nothing larger than deer would be a good start untill they are at an age where they can draw more weight. There is nothing wrong with waiting for some of lifes pleasures.
When I started I had to be 14 to hunt birds,16 to hunt big game and 21 to hunt in the tavern on Friday night.

There is a lot more to it to be considered than Draw weight. Do we need more than a 40# minimum, no.We do need to know and respect the efective ranges of all bows , and the best arrows/broadheads to go with them.
Bowhunting is about up close hunting, but unfortunately far to many are rifle hunting with a bow today. Our efective distance on targets should not be considered the efective distance on animals.Targets don't wander off while the arrow is in flight. This needs to enforced in the young hunters mind. A lot of adults could use a refresher on this too.

I have less concern with hunters using a 35#modern Trad bow and proper hunting arrows at 20 yards than someone shooting 270-300FPS at 65 yards.
Shanons Moose was taken at 39# 27" draw with a recurve with a heavy arrow. It destroyed the Magnus broadhead on the far shoulder. A more powerfull bow would not have done any better. It would have just crumpled up the broadhead even more. Big bones stop arrows from all bows and many bullets are stoped by a moose shoulder. Don't go there on the entry with any bow.

If we consider the perfromance of the bows in use when the law was written it is clear that the 40# weight is not aplicable to todays bows. And when a law is not enforcable in the first place it may as well be gone.

[acearchery]

"When I started I had to be 14 to hunt birds,16 to hunt big game and 21 to hunt in the tavern on Friday night."
Pete.....and Gary...........

How old did you have to be to hunt.............................DINOSAURS?

Good points Both of you....

I think all would agree that arrow placement is important.... A well placed arrow is very important..... If a youngster is overbowed at 40#'s to meet the hunting rule.... he is legal..... but being overbowed leads to innacuracy..............

This discussion will go round and round until an objective method that is based on today's equipment is found. Why don't we all put our heads together and suggest some simple objective measuremnts.

My Turn:
Let us take a longbow at 40# with an AMO broadhead-tipped hunting arrow based on 6 grains per pound shoot into ballistic gel and measure penetration. Each manufacturer then would have to ensure that bow at minimum available draw weight and length exceeds this standard..... to be a hunting bow. This would be marked into riser of bow! Fish and wildlife officers then would have an easier job and this discussion would be moot!..... and the manufacturers would have to add this in ther quality program.... which exists with certain bow manufacturers!......

YOUR TURN.... Add an idea (or revise my idea)....BEFORE YOU REFUTE MINE.... let's work together! :super_hap

I really detest it when people say well AC your idea sucks because I say so.... Or your idea sucks because of blah blah blah.... :nutkick:

Instead propose a solution................!............ Then I will know where my idea sucks! :D

[petew]

We do not shoot under 8GR/# with trad bows. It is very destructive to the limbs.


Such testing is impossible and pointless.. There are thousands of bowyers building bows that are sold all over the world. And there are millions of bows already in service.

In reality there is no way to come up with a law that works.
Archery has to many variables.
Education is the Key. And the educators need to know all types of archery.

[Gary]

I don't have the knowledge to debate the energy of an arrow from a particular set up, be it compound or traditional. I don't really care what weapon is used as long as the set up is capable of cleanly killing the deer (the only big game that youth are permitted to hunt in Alberta). My point was that, in this thread about youth programs with traditional gear, the inference could be drawn from the previous posts that the 40#-28" law could be circumvented if the young person was hunting with a bow that could be pulled to those numbers despite the young persons ability to do so.

Knowing a bit about law and how laws are made, I strongly believe that a person in authority made the requirements based on information of the day concerning the ability of "Joe Average" bowhunter to kill a big game animal. Right or wrong, accurate or inaccurate, that is the law and any individual who inspires young people, coaches young people or participates with young people should not be looking at ways to get around it in order to avoid conviction if challenged. It is not about beating the government, it should be about ethics, the right message to send to the student and increasing the likelihood of humanely kill the deer.

BTW...My son, when he was 12, wanted to bowhunt. We spent a year together and got to the point where his equipment exceeded the test, he was not overbowed and was accurate to 25 yards. We hunted together without any doubt that he and his equipment could do the job.

If you or anyone reading this find themselves involved with youth in any endeavor, insist that they play by the rules and/or the intention of the rules. Doing that will reap many rewards as time goes by.

A few final points...
1. Pete...Your quote "I have less concern with hunters using a 35#modern Trad bow and proper hunting arrows at 20 yards than someone shooting 270-300FPS at 65 yards" has some merit, however, like you, I am aware of competent traditional archers with equipment that far exceeds the 35# you speak of who have let go an arrow at closer distances and wounded deer and antelope. Like you, I am aware of compound archers who have missed at 65 yards(miss/wound-same thing). My point is....This passion of ours is not only about competency with equipment and taking those shots, it is more about having the ethics to decide not to.

2. Pete....Your quote "And when a law is not enforceable in the first place it may as well be gone". I know you have studied this game and I believe that you have significant knowledge on what makes a bow and arrow work so well. I believe you have the expertise to properly advise the government on what is required to update the current regulation. Let us know how you make out.

3. Pete....Does Stacy's bow go beyond 27"? If not, I trust you have contacted Fish and Game and reported him for using a bow that didn't meet the 40#-28" rule. :wink:

[acearchery]

We do not shoot under 8GR/# with trad bows. It is very destructive to the limbs.

Where did AMO Standard come from? how do trad bows get an AMO Speed? Fine lets use a 320 grain 30 inch arrow for the test. With 40# at 28"

"Such testing is impossible and pointless.. There are thousands of bowyers building bows that are sold all over the world. And there are millions of bows already in service"

Pete I specifically asked for a solution not.... your idea sucks..... Wildlife Law is supposed to be based on knowlege and research.... Yes bows are in service... new law grandfathers existing equipment.... kind of like vehicles without seatbelts as original.... not required to have seatbelts..... as for the number of manufacturers etc...... that is whey there is an AMO to set standards.... why do all AMO manufactured bows have sight holes/ stab holes common threads and spacing? it is possible..... Why because it has been done!....

"I strongly believe that a person in authority made the requirements based on information of the day"..... true but now it is a new day.... law was made before compound bow was produced....

Gary according to your interpretation of the law.... people that have a less than 27" draw cannot hunt with a bow legally.... How long of a draw did your 12 year old son have?

[I]Persons hunting big game must use an authorized bow and an authorized arrow. An authorized bow is one that is held, drawn and released by muscular power and has a draw weight of not less than 18 kg (40 lb.). This is the number of kilograms (pounds) required to draw an arrow of 71 cm (28 in.) to its head. An authorized arrow is one that is not less than 61 cm (24 in.) in length ........

Notice it does not say reach 40#'s within archers draw length but reach 40#'s to draw 28" arrow to its head....

I would never condone, coach, encourage or otherwise allude that anyone should ever disobey the law.... But it is important to understand that law was implemented before compound bows and needs to be updated............. HOW DO WE DO THAT.........

Let us forget the past and look head.... law needs to be updated.........HOW!ows and recurves.... time for one with a compound.....

here is my original idea.... Take a 40# 28" longbow and shoot a 30" 320 legal hunting arrow into ballistic gel.... measure penetration... take a round wheel compound and see what poundage with g grainse per pound legal hunting arrow (AMO standard) and find what draw weight @ 28" (25" minimum arrow) penetrates as deep ...... But this does not work because each compound bow has different charactaristics and hat is why I modified it to what it is in the previous post.....

I have put a lot of thought and intuition into this idea..... for it to be dismissed so cavalierly without proper thought and an intelligent factual response.............

I'm Done!............................Until someone has has an intelligent SOLUTION..........






Law works for longb

[petew]

I agre completely and to the final points..
1/Good point , I agree completely.

2/I have had discussions with F&W and the ministers office, about this subject and the current law.They said it is not aimed at youth and the intension is to prevent an adult from going out with an obviously inadequate bow like one of the old solid Fiberglass bows at 25 or 30 pounds and shooting it at a game animal. They have no intension of making any changes at all and have no intension of trying to enforce the law as it reads unless it is a blatant violation like an adult with a Canadian Tire Fiberglass kid bow.. They do not want to discourage youth from taking up hunting.
They are not equiped to measure a bow in the field , and have no intension of having the tools in the field units to do so.
A club I belong to also has the same opinion and wanted no part in trying to make the regulations sensible for the same reasons.
There is no requirement to have a bows weight on the bow and many of all types do not have it marked there.

3/ I own this bow, It is a recurve that draws to and exceeds the 40# minimum.
It scales and chrono reads as below.
27 " 37# 356GR arrow 151 FPS 494 GR arrow 137 FPS
28" 41# 356GR arrow 159 FPS 494GR arrow 145 FPS
He hunted with a 497 gr arrow and a 2 blade magnus head , 12.7 GR/#.

I have tested and owned self bows that draw 5o pounds at 28" that have much less performance. They are suitable for rabbits at best. Draw weight has place in the regulations.
Below are the specs for a 42# longbow I have.
At 26" draw it has substantialy more power than the recurve has at 28" yet there is only 1# diference in draw weight at 28".This bow model could drop in draw weight at 28" to well under 40# and still have adequate performance for hunting, however it would be illegal but a superior choice.

26" 38# 404gr 170 fps 452gr 157fps 552gr 150fps
27" 39# 404 gr 176fps 452gr 164fps 552gr 153fps
28" 42# 404 gr 183fps 452gr 172fps 552gr 158fps

Many places have diferent rules and I have yet to see one that is sensible or enforcable.
Some use KE, arrow weight minimum's , cast , and combinations of these.
One state even requires a bow to shoot a certain weight arrow a specified distance. I can see testing this in 2 feet of snow on a windy day . Do you shoot up wind or down? Who looks for the arrow?
I can just see it, Mr hunter will you come with me to find a clear level field to test your bow.

Trying to legislate a legal bow is like putting a speed limit on swimming.
Teaching Ethics is dificult at best. We would be better served with a code of conduct guideline that has factual information to help the student develope good ethics and sportsmanship. Informed decisions are better than those derived from other persons unfounded beliefs belief and old wives tales.

Armed with solid knowledge the student will chose the right path.

[petew]

Al :Not dismissing it like you think. I have tried to think out a workable solution for a long time but I am convinced it is not there. I was writing the above post when you were writing yours.
As for testing like you propose what would we use for the test bow?
A hickory English longbow or an Adcock CX. Within the diferent styles of bows the spread is so great that a number derived from them is just not going to apply, even in the respective classes of bows.
This is the AMO to test bows.
A.M.O.

Under this standard the bow being tested will have a maximum pull weight of 60lbs. The arrow will have a grain weight of 540(9 grains of arrow weight per pound of bow weight). The draw length will be set at 30 inches. The chronograph used for measuring the speed will be placed at point blank range for testing.
Note that this is a minimum weight of 9GR/# at 30" draw and is used as a speed testing standard. The traditional shooter would not consider hunting with a 320 gr arrow. 8 gr/# that most bowyers specify is for the safety of the limb only and these arrows are for target shooting.. Typicaly we shoot 9 to 10 as a bare minimum for hunting and to hunt with light draw bows we go higher to at least a 450 gr arrow regardless of the draw weight. Not all but most follow this rule of thumb. Arrows over 500 grains are the norm as a minimum that most use for hunting. I shoot much heavier arrows than this..
The typical test that traditional shooters want to use for measuring a a hunting setup is 28" draw, 9 gr/# as this is closer to what Joe average is shooting.

One would have to derive a standard for every type of bow due to the large variation in performance between types and makes. The regs are already a book.

[acearchery]

Understood.... but having a manufacturer study the bow according to objective guidelines that this compound bow will place an arrow at the minimum draw weight and length at least as far as a 40# legal longbow.... this could be what was the average when this law was made in the early establishment of archery seasons in Alberta...

Now the regulations would not be any bigger.... just have to add line... "or is designated by the manufacturer as being able to provide _______ millimetres of penetration into _____ ballistic gel with a density of ______ at _____grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight with a 7/8's diameter broadhead at a distance of _____ metres." If the AMO adopted as a standard then the regs could quote standard.... like OHS law.... or compound bow must meet or exceed AMO standard #Al's Hunting standard.....

Manufactures measure the perfomance of their bows this is just another performance standard.

What is the lowest performance longbow legal in Alberta.... could use thas for a standard

Now if a person deviates from the standard by shooting too light of an arrow then this is now intentionally bypassing the law.... and comes back to ethics!

Officers would just look and see a "standard mark"......... same thing I use to ensure safety glasses meet standard.... CSA stamp!................ Now for bows preceding standard mark... just like now.... still have existing law.... with or clause so if a person buying a new bow can meet new clause...

The reason I am using a measure of terminal ballistics..... is at the end of the day arrow penetration is the performance measure of the bow which most closely relates to lethality..... everything else is up to the archer (shot placement, yardage etc.)

The law is fine for recures and longbows..... it needs to be updated for compounds....

Just for giggles I will do some penetration tests using a longbow and my wife's... small roundwheel compound.....which goes from 25- 40 lbs and from 24-27inches of draw...
I can make a gel tube and do some measuring.

[Gary]

Gary according to your interpretation of the law.... people that have a less than 27" draw cannot hunt with a bow legally.... How long of a draw did your 12 year old son have? It is not my interpretation...it is the law...40#-28 inches. I do not recall the arrow length but it made the test and was tipped with a 100 gr Thunderhead which I still have. The compound was a Browning Micro Midas set at 45 lbs. If you knew me well enough you wouldn't have asked the question :)

Pete has already tried to make a difference but his efforts fell on deaf ears. Pete is one voice. Solutions require the will of many to encourage the implementation. So one solution is to rally the clubs and the ABA to put it forth as a regulation resolution and see how it falls out. If the will of the many is there then the submission will be made.

I have already made my point with respect to what the law says and it's intention. And to drive it home...what are your thoughts on a tiny 12 year old girl who has passed her hunter safety course, obtained a WIN card and a hunting license and youth whitetail tag. She shoots a 40 lb@28 inch recurve and a 24 inch arrow but she can only pull it about 15 inches which would be in the neighborhood of 14 lbs of draw weight. The arrow she is carrying has to be so light in order to cast it 20 yards. Should she be in the woods shooting that arrow at a deer.

With respect to enforcement of laws...just because an agency does not enforce it does not mean that it shouldn't. Everyone has heard of the lack of funding and human resouces within F&G. I would think that enforcement of this would be rather low on the priority list consdiering the more serious things that require attending. There is a duty among every citizen to use the laws and police ourselves. To teach and coach those that we involve ourselves with. Which brings me back to the issue that got me into this discussion in the first place.

As I said, I have no expertise in bow mechanics or energy expenditure and don't care to get involved in learning it. My scenario proves what I have been talking about and my solution to it is that the mentor, archery coach and parent recognize that the girl does not meet the intent of the law and should not be permitted to hunt until she reaches the 40# minimum.

[petew]

Actualy there is no requirement to draw the arrow any distance for actual hunting.. It only says the bow must have 40# when it draws a 28" arrow to its head. Then it states the minimum legal arrow length is 25".

Your example of the little girl is a perfect example of how poorly the law is written. She would be legal as long as her arrow was 25" long and the bow was 40# at 28"AMO. no matter what her draw length is.Definately not a good situation even for bunnies if her setup was like you describe.But it is only falling short of legal by 1" of arrow length, an easy fix. Definately wrong to even consider by any moral/ethical way of thinking, but within our stupid laws.

Ironicly a 35# bow at 28" that is drawn by some lanky long armed ape to 31" would not be legal. Even though it has more than 40# at 31" and the extra performance of the long draw stroke. At 31" it could very well reach 45# or more. It would be a far superior hunting rig, but it is not legal.

Pete